a few questions about selling knives proffesionally

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Dec 1, 2010
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I'd like to start selling the knives i make as i feel like i am at a good spot to do so in terms of my skill, however i do have some big questions.

Firstly, and most importantly, do you need to have any permits in order to make and sell knives?

How do i write off sales and expenses on my taxes?

and lastly do most folks price per hour +material cost?

Any info regarding anything anything listed here would be amazing! Especially that first part, that would be super useful to know....

Thanks
-Dave
 
First, I would let the customers determine WHEN you are ready to pursue a business. This is not a money making enterprise, I can't stress that enough. Generally, you start making knives and show them off. Soon, people start asking you to make a knife or two for them. At that point, check the market, see what your work looks similar to in overall quality and price accordingly. You will probably give away or nearly give away more than a couple knives before you sell anything to anyone who doesn't know you... You have to think like a customer, their first question is always "why buy his knofe when I can get knife x at the same price and its from a known maker?"
Second, your knives need to pass peer review before you start selling them. Post some here, take the abuse, or better yet do what I did, hit up some mastersmiths and let them tear you a new one for a while :) When they go "Meh, its alright" you will be ready to sell. ;)
For me, I sold them as a private enterprise for a while as long as the income (which you can report on your 1040 same as a guy who mows a few lawns) as miscellaneous income. When it starts to have a real tax concern, or you start to have items that need to be claimed, depreciated, etc... then form an LLC, S corp, sole proprietorship or whatever applies to your situation. Trust me, find a lawyer who specializes in this stuff. I have a degree in accounting and some of it boggles me from time to time.
Your net losses/expenses are going to offset your net gain for a while, so estimated quarterly tax payments probably won't be needed. From there, however, you need to look at any specific permits or licenses your locale has. Each is specific and unique. Most have a variety of permits that apply to retail establishments (which include a shop of you do point of purchase sales there) or the flea market vendor. Some places you need a resale license if you plan on selling anything, and I mean ANYTHING that was purchased from a distributor for resale. It was taxed differently and it is a concern...
Simply speaking, take it slow. Sell a couple and if it is enough to claim (in my former life the threshold was $200 but was really just an estimate of what wouldn't tick off the feds but the law states ANY income...) then claim it. No offense, but I don't think you will be turning out $1000 pieces just yet. You are new, work slow, and it wouldn't be practical for someone to pay you hourly. My knives take about 100 hours of real work, design to finish, and if I charged hourly even minimum wage with no materials cost, that would be $700+. I won't discuss what I charge here, but suffice it to say it isn't $700 ;) far from it.
I formed a business as I offer a guarantee, and I also have some professional concerns in my day job that need isolation from any venture I have outside of it. From a sales standpoint, I am trying to climb and learn the ABS ladder, and am happy to just keep materials and such coming.
The short answer is really every situation is different. I made a few products back in the day and had whole companies that had no assets, existed only on paper, and lived for a very brief time. Yeah, business law is that weird. Talk to a lawyer if you think you are stepping on federal toes, but truly you will feel the time when you need to have a business plan and incorporate.
(Disclaimer time: I am not a lawyer, this is only one guys opinion and is not meant to be a how to, or anything of the sort. I claim no liability for any actions anyone may take after reading this .. ;))
 
An just to answer that specific question about how to claim it on your taxes... it is filed on a schedule c. But the dirty little secret of the accounting world? Turbo tax... lol.
 
Second piece of advice, do not ask a knife forum for advice on taxes...

If you want to start a business, check to see if there are any state resources to do so, then go speak to an accountant. They can at least set you straight and save you a lot of pain and grief in the future. You don't have to use an accountant, just that they will help you setup your books, etc.

Making, selling, etc. Easy. Running the business, taxes, payroll ... huge headache.
 
Second piece of advice, do not ask a knife forum for advice on taxes...

What, I thought I did quite well, thank you... lol :)

And yes, there are even places like legal zoom that specialize in 'the whole package' for small timers like us.
 
What, I thought I did quite well, thank you... lol :)

And yes, there are even places like legal zoom that specialize in 'the whole package' for small timers like us.

You did fine, but I really want to drive home the point that the IRS is not your friend. They can be friendly, but they can and will destroy your life over a simple clerical error.

So before you start selling on any level that can be recognized in your finances, you would do well to speak to a professional to get the lay of the land so you know how to setup your business proper.


IRS has some good info here:
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Starting-a-Business

Oregon has some good info here:
http://www.filinginoregon.com/pages/business_registry/index.html
http://www.oregon4biz.com/Grow-Your-Business/Starting-a-business-in-Oregon/

I would recommend becoming intimately familiar with accounting, and how it works.

You'll also want to start looking in to some of the tax law regarding what you can/can't write off and when you have to do it.

Last thing. Always pay your taxes on time. The taxes aren't that bad, but the fees, and interest will quickly put you under.
 
You did fine, but I really want to drive home the point that the IRS is not your friend. They can be friendly, but they can and will destroy your life over a simple clerical error.

So before you start selling on any level that can be recognized in your finances, you would do well to speak to a professional to get the lay of the land so you know how to setup your business proper.


IRS has some good info here:
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Starting-a-Business

Oregon has some good info here:
http://www.filinginoregon.com/pages/business_registry/index.html
http://www.oregon4biz.com/Grow-Your-Business/Starting-a-business-in-Oregon/

I would recommend becoming intimately familiar with accounting, and how it works.

You'll also want to start looking in to some of the tax law regarding what you can/can't write off and when you have to do it.

Last thing. Always pay your taxes on time. The taxes aren't that bad, but the fees, and interest will quickly put you under.

Absolutely... I have a degree in accounting as stated above and worked as a tax preparation instructor for a major firm and also specialized in small business taxation at one point in my life. Writing things off and depreciation of assets is a ballgame in and unto itself. For example, if you choose to claim your shop as a business asset and depreciate it as such, a little thing like you made some pieces of furniture in it for home use can collapse the whole thing. Something as seemingly simple as a phone line, power supply, or any personal use can collapse the whole deck of cards. (There are threshold amounts for these, and unless you know them all, do as advised and get professional help.)
And if you ever get a "friendly call" from the irs, (and take this from a cop, we do it to), the questions asked are hardly ever meaningless... If you think there is even a chance you did something wrong (again, from a cop and applies with other stuff too), you might want to have an attorney present. Those rights they read you aren't just for giggles, but don't fool yourself... just because they weren't "read" to you doesn't mean they won't use what you say against you... we are only required to read you your rights when two things are present, 1) you are in custody and 2) we are conducting an interrogation...

And even with my background; after over a decade since my last professional dealings in the accounting world there has been too much change for me to make much sense of it... so I consult a professional...
 
Wow that is way more info than I expected and I must thank you for that, however I'm still unclear as to the legality of selling knives as they are considered weapons more often than not. This part worries me as I don't want to be in a spot in the future where I'd get in trouble. Is this a legitimate concern? Or could I sell a million and nobody would bat an eye?
 
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