A few questions from a "wannabe"

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michdad

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Apr 24, 2007
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I have a few ?'s that I hope you boys and girls might be able to help with. I am not new to a shop, but have never tried to make a knife before. I do have a bench grinder and a few files, but would prefer to not spend alot of $ on tools until I find out if I have the skill, or will stay a wannabe. I caught a thread saying that the best way to start is with a file. Learn how to work with them, building skills, determining level of desire. Made a lot of sense to me. What kind of steel to start with? I did contact a number of steel suppliers in my area and found one that would harden "knife blade composit steel" for $36 per 10 pounds. Wasn't a confidence builder due to the lack of questions asked of me or information that seemed to register. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
 
Almost any machinist supply house in your area should sell oil hardening steel. That's O1 and it's just about as fool proof a steel as you can get. Don't worry about paying someone to heat treat it, you can do it yourself most likely but that's something to worry about after you get the knife to that point ;)
 
First of all concerned with getting a point shaped sharp edge object worth wihile getting heat treated, Then I will go from there!
 
michdad said:
First of all concerned with getting a point shaped sharp edge object worth wihile getting heat treated, Then I will go from there!
Click to expand...


I didn't mean to come across as making a joke at you. What I'm saying is that O1, oil hardening steel, available at most machinist supply houses makes a fine knife and is pretty much foolproof in it's heat treat. Furthermore, when you get ready to heat treat it, some of us can explain how to do it cheaply at home without the need for sending it out to a commercial heat treater.
 
Hi michdad - I think you'll do just fine with files to start. Just make sure they are good ones and not cheapo jobs from Wal-mart or some such (ask me how I know those don't work). The bench grinder won't be all that much help for doing your grind, but will be great to clean up the profile of your knife and make it into a blank.

I like working with 10xx series steels, preferably 1080 or 1084. These are the simplest to heat treat and are very cheap. A lot of folks love 5160, which can be had cheap and heat treats fairly easily.

I don't care for O-1 as a "starter steel" because the heat treat is actually a bit complicated if you're after "perfection". If you're not after it, then I can't justify the cost of precision ground stock, just about the only way you can buy flat bars of O-1. It's a very good knife steel, however.

I would recomend picking up "The $50 Knife Shop" by Wayne Goddard. There is a ton of info about steels, tools, etc *and* there's even a bit on how to properly draw file a blade.

I should add that you can order 10xx series, 5160 and O-1 from Admiral Steel. You can order 10xx and 5160 from Kelly Cupples, one of my favorite folks to deal with, but he has a very small selection of O-1.

Also, if you get air hardening tool or stainless steels, they'll cost you more up front, but you can pay to have them professionally heat treated and be sure of what you're getting back.
 
I have heard enough about "Ther $50 knifeshop" to go out of my way to get that. My files are off of th "Snap on" truck, so they aint cheap. Time and use will tell if they are bot good. How to harden at home??
 
Kay', done with dinner. hope I can type a little better. (Greasy fingers can slip). Appreciate the advice I am getting. Thanks!
 
I have read that it is possible to heat treat and anneal in my oven, but then read just after that the temps needed far exceed my oven. It has a max setting of 550. does this work, or do I need to explore flame treating?
 
You can not harden in your oven, although you can temper. To harden "simple" carbon steels you need to get around 1500. Simple means the main alloy in the steel is carbon. May have a bit of chrome and manganese etc, but, its major factor is carbon. There are some relatively, inexpensive simple ways to get a piece of steel this hot. A simple propane torch and a bit of the correct insulation will do it. After the steel is hardened it is possible to temper in a kitchen oven.
 
Thereare a whole lot of useful bits in the sticky labeled something like "newbies Good info here" at the top of the knifemakers page. Lots of good surprisingly useful stuff, some really technical stuff from Kevin Cashen, Mete, and good common sense advice from lots of folks who have been at this for a lon time but started like you as newbies.

You can harden in a modified barbeque or a piece of firebrick hollowed out with a torch pointing into it, you can temper in your oven, ,get the Goddard Book, read the stickies, and talk to Mace and Aldo or Kelly Cupples for steel. I really like 1084 for teaching beginners forging, personally for stock removal I think O-1 is the cat's 'nads, it's almost foolproof, but it's expensive.

-Page
 
Personally, I don't know your level of patience, but it takes quite a long time to file a piece of steel with a file! :D You can develop skill from using files, but again, it's so slow that it's hard to actually mess something up real bad. It's not the same kind of skill you will learn from free hand grinding as the belt grinder is moving far faster than any hand file could move. Maybe you could find a maker in your area that would be willing to let you try out their belt grinder! That's the way to find out whether that's something you'd be willing to pursue or not. When you constantly think knifemaking is when you know you'll be into it! When one is sitting in church and thinking about knives when he should be paying attention to the priest is when you know knifemkaing is something you feel like pursuing! :D
 
I Would Suggest To Purchase A 1x42 Grinder Like The Delta That You Can Get At Lowes. The Machine Is Cheap & It Will Grind A Blade.
You Can Get Quality 1x42 Belts At Tru-grit.
If You Decide Knife Making Is Not For You, The Grinder Is Still Good To Have Around & It Did Not Cost You 500-3000$$
I Built My Fist Few Knives On This Machine.
Good Luck,
Randy
 
If you end up sticking with knife making, filing will be a great skill to have developed. You will use files on guards, shoulders, possibly for plunges, handle work, file work and much more. A file is one of the oldest and most precise ways to shape your metal by hand. Just don't try to do a bowie on your first knife, think small like a neck knife, small wharcliffe or short skinner.

With technique and a good pace, you can remove a lot of metal very quickly with a file. The key in this case is draw filing.

Goddard's book also talks about simple heat treating at home, a plumber's torch, a single firebrick and an oven or toaster oven is really all you need for a small knife.
 
just joined yesterday, and not meaning to jump on michdad's thread, but moreso compliment it with a question:


I notice you all talk of the possibility of a simple home forge, but for someone like me in an apartment and starting out on the cheap (as indicated in the stick..a lot of drilling and filing is fine with me) how would I go about finding a place to heat treat locally? I've looked around the internet for places in Tampa but most are ironworks for gates and whatnots, or are very large facilities.
 
invictusmaneo said:
just joined yesterday, and not meaning to jump on michdad's thread, but moreso compliment it with a question:


I notice you all talk of the possibility of a simple home forge, but for someone like me in an apartment and starting out on the cheap (as indicated in the stick..a lot of drilling and filing is fine with me) how would I go about finding a place to heat treat locally? I've looked around the internet for places in Tampa but most are ironworks for gates and whatnots, or are very large facilities.
Click to expand...


If you're using a simple 10xx steel you can heat treat in an old charcoal grill using charcoal.

Take a piece of 1 1/2 black pipe (available at Lowes or Home Depot) about 2-3" longer than the grill body cap the end that's in the body. Drill a series of 3/16" holes about 1 1/4" apart down the center of the pipe that will be inside the body. I notched the side of the grille body so that the bottom of the notch was about 2-3" above the pipe

Buy some firebrick from a local brick supplier and line the body of the grill with that. You want to make a "V" shape where it's a little larger than the size of the pipe at the bottom and widening up towards the top. Coat the brick with fireplace mortar (available in caulking gun tube at Lowes and Home Depot.)

Duct tape an old hair dryer or the nozzle of a shop vac (set the nozzle so it blows air) to the end of the pipe that's outside the forge body.

Get a nice bed of burning charcoal going in the forge with the air going, you can use most any charcoal but DO NOT use the self lighting kind. You want a bed of charcoal about 5-6" deep in the forge. Place your blade in the burning charcoal about 2" from the bottom.

That's how simple it is to heat treat a blade. Shouldn't cost you more than $30 to build this heat treat forge and noone will complain because it won't smell any different than a barbeque grill.

Temper the blade in your oven. Buy a thermometer to set next to your blade because you can't trust the dial on the oven.
 
The simple forge most folks are talking about is the size of a 4.5"x9" brick and a plumber's torch (about the size of a wine bottle). Or the brick can be replaced with a coffee can setup. These are easily stowed away in a drawer or closet and can be brought outside to do heat treating.

If you have stainless or air hardening tool steels, Paul Bos is a great professional heat treater, but not cheap if you're doing just one blade. Texas knife is a reputable outfit as well and they charge something like $5 per blade.
 
This is going to sound odd, kind of. Two questions (Again I apologize michdad for jumping on your thread, but figured I was in the same boat and it would only eat up bandwidth creating another thread):

-Angle grinders arent TOO loud (on these types of steel) are they? I'm not sure how my apartment complex would take to them; I have used grinders before but never on something like this

-On the same note..short of the drill/hacksaw cheapo method, are there any places that will cut your shapes out of stock for you? I've looked around a bit locally, and not had much luck. Found a place that will heat treat lots up to 1000 pieces for 85 bucks, but my other difficulty is the cutting. I can do it if I can find a place.
 
Will Leavitt said:
I didn't mean to come across as making a joke at you. What I'm saying is that O1, oil hardening steel, available at most machinist supply houses makes a fine knife and is pretty much foolproof in it's heat treat. Furthermore, when you get ready to heat treat it, some of us can explain how to do it cheaply at home without the need for sending it out to a commercial heat treater.
Click to expand...

Nope, didn't take it as a joke. I love what I see from the makers, and like to think that I might have a chance of finding my own style. Appreciate the advice.
 
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