a good read on winter clothing

Camber said:
Do you have a preference between the Montane and Buffalo? Any real differences?

Also, what sort of temperature ranges do you find them comfortable in?

Any insight is greatly appreciated. I'm really intrigued by the concept and reviews.
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I've got a single Montane smock but loads of Buffalo bits; Mountain Jacket, Special 6s, Active Light, Windshirt, .etc.

The closest I have to put in a head to head with the Montane would be a Special 6 [with hood bought separately]. If I were to only buy one from all of them it would be the Montane. It's warmer, built a bit tougher [although I've yet to damage any of my Buffalo stuff and some is more than 20yrs old], and the hood is way better. In fact, the hood on the Buffalo stuff is crude.

That said, the Special 6 feels a lot softer and more flexible, and is cut with a bit more room across the arms. It also seems to dry faster. [I Nikwax all this stuff].

Both vent nicely, but I'd give the nod to the Montane. I'll happily wear either under heavy activity around freezing. They both shrug off drizzle quite happily. Ideally you aren't supposed to wear anything under them, but I prefer a base layer.

The Buffalo wins for me as part of a system, “well oiled set of gimbals” I mentioned further up the thread. As a dynamic system for cold, damp and windy its brilliant. It makes humping load up across the moors at this time of year much easier. As I said to matey when I was making the recommendations for his kit – don't look to what the guy who gets out once a month is wearing on the hill, look to what Mountain Rescue are wearing to fetch him down. There's a lot of Buffalo gear worm by those guys. Then there's the military pedigree.

The Montane design, although also now very dated, would be my first pick for use as a conventional soft shell in the cold, wet and windy. If I didn't use the Buffalo as a complete system I'd stick with the Montane for this.

Still, as good as they are there are drawbacks. Buffalo sleeping bags illustrate that brilliantly. Frankly, they are shit unless they really are all you've got to curl up in a damp ditch with. Too heavy, and too bulky for the returns they give compared to synthetic fillings [any PrimaLoft type material]. You can apply that same thing to Buffalo clothing. The same weight of PrimaLoft Fireball wrapped in Pertex Quantum would be way warmer.

For me, the Special 6 and that Montane Smock are the kinds of things I file under semi-amphibious. If I was going to be tipped out of a boat that's what I want to be in. Wring 'em out and watch the water drain. Down a wet hole, outside of caving dry suits and SRT gear, those are what I want to be in. Mildly damp in them, whilst not ideal, is a hell of a lot better than anything else I've used. You just keep pumping the juice out. And the breathability is fantastic. Combined with the ventilation from those big ole side zips they are a very flexible solution. Despite loving Gore-Tex and eVent shells I will often willingly take a hit from damp in these things 'cos over all the experience is better.

If it warms up a bit by Monday [8C] I'' start off on the bike in the Montane. And I'll likely pack an unlined Buffalo Windshirt to slip over my base layer if we end up doing gruelling hill climbs. If it dries up and the temp drops again I'll go for something very different 'cos we could do a lot of stationary. There are lots of options that are better than these things to pack on the bike [see Buffalo sleeping bag comment above].

If you've got a lot of what mtwarden said above;

“the most challenging environment to dress for in the winter is not extreme cold IMO, but rather temps that hang around freezing w/ precipitation- a hard shell is called for and it's very tough to stay dry w/ a hard shell (regardless of the material/price/or manufacturer claim to the otherwise) when moving” then I'd say seriously consider the Montane Smock.
 
^ building on the above, the US military has slowly evolved their clothing system into something that very much resembles a "paramo-like" system- while they still have a gore-tex shell as part of the system, it's use is relegated for static operations in the rain, on the move they utilize an Epic fabric windshirt that is breathable and water resistant (not waterproof)- a thin base layer under (and if needed a fleece layer as well) that helps move moisture outward

I've recently acquired one of the Epic windshirts and thus far am very impressed. Epic, unlike other windshirts that rely on a DWR for their water resistance, is water resistant w/o any DWR which is a huge boon imo

in cold/wet weather on the move, I've found a Capilene 4 (now Expedition Capilene) hoody combined w/ the Epic windshirt to make for a very nice combo- I originally purchased the Cap 4 hoody as a mid-layer (and still occasionally use it for that), but found it really excelled as a base layer in cold weather during higher aerobic activities (trail running/snowshoeing/x-country skiing)
 
There's no doubt that wet-cold and windy are the most dangerous situations. A lot of people seem to recommend synthetics these days, but in my experience the stuff just is not comfortable. It feels wet and cold even when dry, while wool feels warm and dry even when damp.

Another concern is that synthetics do not last. The materials degrade readily and become dirty much faster. They also provide inconsistent insulation which also degrades at least ten times faster than traditional materials. They may be a good choice if you are certain to get wet and are in a situation with non-fire heating, but if you are in rough conditions and rely on fire synthetics can be an expensive pain at best and a life-threatening danger at worst.

For most woods work, especially long term, wool and cotton canvas are much better. Better breathability and more durable and comfortable. Cotton canvas also provides the opportunity to wax only certain areas to increase breathability while maintaining durability. And wool is simply better on the skin while plastics can be harmful to your skin and the environment.
 
I like wool, use it a lot and have quite a bit of it in my "quiver"- it still is my go to base layer (top, boxers & socks) on longer trips and makes up the majority of my garment when hunting

for high aerobic activities, it simply dries too slowly; for less aerobic activities it does pretty darn well

certain synthetics are short lived, too short lived in some cases- Primaloft (and similar) have shown to lose loft pretty quickly- it's definitely warm for it's weight (although still a long cry from down), but packing/unpacking significantly undercuts it's ability for warmth (very little effect on down); there are two newer synthetics that look pretty promising in regards to losing loft- Polartec Alpha and Climashield Apex, both are heavier than Primaloft for the same warmth, but not greatly so

the simple fleece garment is starting to see some resurgence, it's long lasting (I have a couple of original Patagonia synchilla pullovers from the late 80's that are in great shape), it dries quickly (can be wrung and shook if need be), cheap and pretty efficient- I find the 100 weight stuff makes for a great mid-layer on the move in wet/cold conditions- it will melt the fibers when struck w/ embers (as evidenced by almost all of my fleece :D), but nothing too bad if one is a little careful with his fire
 
Yeah, actually fleece can be quite comfortable, and for heavy activity the synthetic wicking layers can be very good, and strong. I guess it's mainly sleeping where I'd prefer wool long johns or a wool blanket.

It would probably be very easy to make something like the fjallraven luhkka (Sami 'cape' basically) that would breathe very well. I made an anorak last year, and I'm no sewer.

One advantage of the synthetic bags is that you retain some insulation and comfort below you. Down compresses into nothing.

Good to test and see what works in your location.
 
Baldtaco,
Thank you very much for the detail. When you say use the Buffalo as part of a system, are you referring to your mention of having a puffy for static situations?

Mtwarden,
Did you get one by Wild Things or Beyond our is there another manufacturer? If by Wild Things, what color did you snag? I was reading there is a difference between the coyote and multi-cam actually.
 
Camber said:
Baldtaco,
Thank you very much for the detail. When you say use the Buffalo as part of a system, are you referring to your mention of having a puffy for static situations?
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Mah pleasure. No, I use layers of Buffalo stuff. That way there is always an outward facing *proof. Not only do I enjoy the slippage between the layers but also the minimal fuss. Even if my Special 6 is damp and now quite chilly I whack another Buffalo layer layer straight over it and drive the moisture out through the lot. Same if I was just using their Windshirt over a base, I'll stick the 6 on over that. Then there are the trousers.
 
Nice, I gotcha now. I guess it makes sense that it would work so well as a system like that.

Thank you again.
 
Camber said:
Mtwarden,
Did you get one by Wild Things or Beyond our is there another manufacturer? If by Wild Things, what color did you snag? I was reading there is a difference between the coyote and multi-cam actually.
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ORC- it's one of the suppliers to the US Military, mine is alpha green and had for about $50 shipped :)
 
Thank you mtwarden. Any chance you could leave me a visitors message or send an email with a link or term to google...I'm not having any luck right now?
 
Thank you mtwarden. I did eventually find that site. I'm tempted, but my guess is the large is way to big for me with only a 42" chest. May have to keep my eye on the bay for a medium.
 
^ I'm 5'11" and about 180# w/ a 42"-ish chest and I have the Large, it's only a little big- the waist has a shockcord drawstring and the arm cuffs have adj velcro closures- so some decent adjustment- for a windshirt I'd rather have it a little big (vs a little small) to layer over various garments; then again the Medium might be just perfect :D
 
Wow, I really appreciate the perspective. I would have expected the large to be much bigger. I tried a medium from Wild Things once and it was huge on me. Thank you again.
 
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