A "Heads UP" for those who teach

Ed Caffrey

Ed Caffrey

Joined
Jul 23, 1999
Messages
1,409
About a year ago, I had an individual contact me, wanting to take a Damascus class. When I asked this person how long they had been making knives, he was very evasive. I told him that I would not teach an individual a Damascus class who did not have a basic understanding of forging blades, and that if he did show up, I would require that he forge a straight steel blade to my satisfaction before I would agree to teach him Damascus.
To make a long story short, the individual finally told me that he was not a knifemaker, but wanted to learn how to make damascus so he could take it back to his "overseas factory" (Asian), and start producing damascus for resale here in the States. I decided to test him and told him that if I did teach him for the purposes he intended, I would require him to sign a legal contract in which I would receive a small percentage of his gross sales. He would not even entertain the idea, so.....

I flat refused to teach him, because I believe that there is far too much inferior damascus being produced and sold to those who don't know any better.

Anyway, the same individual is back, leaving messages on my answering machine, wanting me to teach him how to make damascus. I have not responded to his calls, and wanted to make others aware of what this person represents.......he's not at all interested in cutlery, or knifemaking, but rather dumping inferior/cheap damascus stock onto the U.S. market.

If your a knifemaker, who teaches, this is just a "heads up". If your contacted by someone wanting you to teach them damascus, please make sure you ask questions and be cautious. Feel free to contact me via email or by phone if you need more information.
 
Ed Caffrey said:
................................
To make a long story short, the individual finally told me that he was not a knifemaker, but wanted to learn how to make damascus so he could take it back to his "overseas factory" (Asian), and start producing damascus for resale here in the States. I decided to test him and told him that if I did teach him for the purposes he intended, I would require him to sign a legal contract in which I would receive a small percentage of his gross sales. He would not even entertain the idea, so.....

....................
Click to expand...


It would have been OK as long as he cut you in for a share of the profits though?
 
No, it would have made no difference if he was willing to "cut me in" or not.:rolleyes:
That was my little test to see exactly where he was going, and to see how serious he was. The inflections in his voice when I told him that, confirmed my suspicions.......he was/is motivated by greed, without regard for the quality of product he offers. He could have offered me 50% of his gross and I still would have said no. There are some things that money cannot buy... and for me integrity is one of those things.

And again...No, it has nothing to do with the individual being a "furriner". I've taught, and had folks in my shop from all over the world. If your implying prejudice, then think again.
My motivation comes from years of seeing substandard damascus dumped onto the U.S. market (both from within and without), and then listening to those who purchase it sing the blues because the damascus they purchased was basically worthless for knifemaking. Thats something I do not want to have my name associated with, and I started this thread in hopes of helping someone else avoid it too.
 
Last edited:
I kinda know what your saying Mr. Caffrey. Man brought me a damascus blade, import I'm sure, and wanted me to HT it, and make a guard, and put ivory grips on it. I attempted to oil harden a few times with no luck, then I tried a water quench. Even that didn't work. No change what so ever. There may have been some way to do it, but I have to think it was made up from low carbon junk steel.
 
My feeling is that your instincts are serving you well. To bad there are some who sour the feeling around a great opportunity that you offer.

Take care, Craig
 
Yep, it will be a sad day when you see "fancy" damascus folders for sale on the checkout counter of the local gas station on a cardboard display rack next to the "NASCAR" lighters and air fresheners.

REAL DAMASCUS POCKET KNIVES $3.99 ea.

Hang in there Ed! It's inevitable...the day is coming when they figure it out. Heck, they can even become a "MasterSmith" through the "online" college course.

Whattaya do...? (sigh?)

-Rob
 
Hmmmmmm Ethics? In this business? Mr Caffrey I don't know if you will make it using business practices like that :D Good call on sorting the fella out. I dought it will stop him for long as the info is out there but apparantly he doesn't read so we're safe for now :)
 
i must admit i am confused at how you are stopping him from making cheap damascus.

if he takes a class from you, I assume you would teach him how to forge a damascus the correct way. So now by refusing to show him the proper technique, are you not serving exactly the purpose you claim to want to avoid?

Now that this man, assuming he's not able to take a class from anyone else, has no idea how to forge a proper damascus blade, will be making one however he sees fit, probably getting ideas from the cheap damascus that have been flooding the market, thus probably resulting in an inferior product.
 
Good on 'ya Ed :thumbup:

I am one of those guys that was singing the blues about crappy steel several years back.

Ed is the first guy that asked me, "Well, what combination of steels was in the mix?"

Heck, I didn't know. I looked into it, and then spoke with Ed about it again and he explained why it was a really poor choice for knife material. And it definitely was. Knowing what I know now, it was a HORRIBLE choice... O1, 1095, and pure Nickel!!!

Deep hardening, super shallow hardening, and totally non-hardening. Hmmm. ;)


You can argue all day about the "best way" to stop these guys, but I think Ed did the best thing he could do by refusing to help this nimrod get started. And pointing it out to the rest of us is just good knife making comradere to help us all look out for each other.

I can see where you might have misread part of his first post, but that part has been cleared up. If you want to pick on somebody, pick on this nimrod that's been bugging Ed.

Thanks Ed :)
 
Horizon_Seeker said:
i must admit i am confused at how you are stopping him from making cheap damascus.

if he takes a class from you, I assume you would teach him how to forge a damascus the correct way. So now by refusing to show him the proper technique, are you not serving exactly the purpose you claim to want to avoid?

Now that this man, assuming he's not able to take a class from anyone else, has no idea how to forge a proper damascus blade, will be making one however he sees fit, probably getting ideas from the cheap damascus that have been flooding the market, thus probably resulting in an inferior product.
Click to expand...

If this guy learns how to make the damascus from Mr. Caffrey then he would problay use the cheapest and the worst kind of steel to make his damacus. Just like some of the stuff you can get now. At least for now the guy does not know how to make it, so some of it has been kept off of the market. I think this is what Mr Caffrey was thinking.
 
Good for you Ed,
The guy only wants to know how to make it and could probably care less what goes into it.
Car fenders old ship parts etc, they don't care.
BB
 
Originally Posted by Horizon_Seeker
i must admit i am confused at how you are stopping him from making cheap damascus.

**I likely won't, but I can make sure that I am not responsible for creating another source of inferior damascus on the market.

Originally Posted by Horizon_Seeker
if he takes a class from you, I assume you would teach him how to forge a damascus the correct way. So now by refusing to show him the proper technique, are you not serving exactly the purpose you claim to want to avoid?

**The problem here is that he's not really interested in taking a class in order to learn how to correctly make damascus. He does not make knives, has never made a knife, or any other thing associated with Damascus steel. (at least thats what he told me last year when he contacted me) His motivation is to learn the basic process, so that he can adapt it, and take it back to an overseas factory and in my opinion, make it out of whatever he can.

Posted by WadeH: If this guy learns how to make the damascus from Mr. Caffrey then he would problay use the cheapest and the worst kind of steel to make his damacus. Just like some of the stuff you can get now. At least for now the guy does not know how to make it, so some of it has been kept off of the market. I think this is what Mr Caffrey was thinking.

** That's exactly where I'm coming from Wade! I might not be able to stop it, but I can certainly ensure that I am not a part of it. And hopefully enough folks who do teach, feel the same way as I do, which was the whole point of initiating this thread.

Nick/Rob/Craig/LBR/Bill/Bobby/Wade: I'm glad to see that some folks understand what I'm trying to do here... Thanks!
 
WadeH said:
If this guy learns how to make the damascus from Mr. Caffrey then he would problay use the cheapest and the worst kind of steel to make his damacus. Just like some of the stuff you can get now. .....
Click to expand...

Where is the evidence to support the assumption that the inquirer "would probably use the cheapest and worst kind of steel"?

While it is conceivably true, Ed said nothing to justify your conclusion.

I do not disagree with Ed's right to refuse the student at all, but it is also not fair for posters to stereotype the person who sought instruction without good evidence of their intentions simply because of their region of origin.
 
To me, it's not about making it correctly or not. It's about the final intentions of this student. He wants to mass produce damascus...correctly or inferiorly, it doesn't matter...but I'm thinking that he wants to appeal to mass markets. Then the ol supply and demand principle comes into play. The market gets flooded with an unlimited amount of mass produced Damascus..and the price drops through the floor.

From there...and for ever more....a Custom damascus knife will just become another thing for sale. Master Smith Joe..will be percieved as a crook or crazy man for asking $3500 for a Bowie.

"Heck, you can buy one just like it at Walmart for $29.95!"

And in truth, it could have the exact same steel...formed exactly correct to some standard...but one was made by an artist and craftsman over some 150 hrs..and the other was made by the metric ton by child laborers in 45 secs. One feeds a man's passion to create a work of art...the other feeds a communistic ecomomy striving to grow into every market on the face of the earth.

Maybe it's just me... I'm sickened by the thought of mass producing this type of product for global distribution.
 
Good for you Ed!!!!!

Integrity and honesty are, in my opinion, all we as custom knife makers have, that seperate us from all that cheap crap that seems to be invading our trade. I could see that guy going back to where ever he came from, and building a lot of junk. Then going out and dropping your name to market it. The old, "I was taught by Ed Caffrey" line..... Where does that take your reputation???
I am proud to know for a fact that you aren't willing to jeopardize that integrity for anyone!!! :thumbup:
 
I totally agree with Ed's stance on this. If he were to show his process in creating damascus, the person could also use Ed's name saying made just like Ed Caffery MS. I have seen this many times on the forums and try to ignore the fishy requests. However this should not stop one for teaching someone who truely wants to learn the "Craft" of bladesmithing.

Nick, Just thought you might want to know the meaning of the word Nimrod is "warrior". I used to use it all the time in a derogatory manner until I figured out what it meant. Now I just use Idiot.
 
fitzo said:
Where is the evidence to support the assumption that the inquirer "would probably use the cheapest and worst kind of steel"?

While it is conceivably true, Ed said nothing to justify your conclusion.

I do not disagree with Ed's right to refuse the student at all, but it is also not fair for posters to stereotype the person who sought instruction without good evidence of their intentions simply because of their region of origin.
Click to expand...



Interesting point... which is not to say that there aren't plenty of instances to show that the conclusion wouldn't be wrong. Nonetheless, I've seen very reputable companies in my own industry switch to production houses in China because the capabilities of product were the same (and in some cases bettered!) than those made in western countries. Even when it was the same product, just made in a different (read: Chinese) facility! (I have examples, if there are any that wish me to provide -- they just aren't knifemaking related, so I figure I'll keep on topic, per se...)

This is not to say that I don't agree with Mr. Caffrey, btw... just food for thought.

I would also contend that we need to be careful with the 'rigid quality control standards' we assume we keep, here... many of us use steel of unknown origin in every knife we make, with no controlled or repeatable means of thermal cycling or heat treating (myself included)... how is this any different?
 
in my opinion -and yes its like an ahole....everyones got one- the same people who would buy a gas station damascus are the same people who buy a gas station blade/folder. the person who are interested in quality knives will always buy quality knives. so in the long run i dont think that balance will shift too much. if a forieng countrry, like say china, can produce a top quality blade with good steel,grind and handle as well as very durable for $5.00 then they still have the disadvantage of being a mass production knife and will still turn off person with real interests in knives. I think that if that did happen there would be more converts , more people who would get sick off stamp and go knives and would really want a more personal knife from a knifemaker. then again its just a thought.. Mr. Caffrey i would turn him away too. thanks mark --soon to be a knifemaker and heading towards abs
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top