A History Question...

[Vaako]

I have a question regarding what I'm going to call " the CQC blade profile". Before going further, I should probably clarify what I mean by a "CQC blade profile" since it now appears on the Raven, Blackbird, SpecWar and other Emerson models as well.


As most of you know, the so-called "American tanto" blade profile is actually one of the oldest Japanese sword shapes known as kiriha zukuri. The blade style was popularized in the 1980s by Lynn Thompson's company, Cold Steel. Before that, the kiriha zukuri tanto was virtually unknown in this country aside from the knives of a very few custom makers like Phil Hartsfield. The popularity of Cold Steel's tantos led other makers and companies to develop other interpretations of the blade shape. Ernest Emerson designed (and if he didn't, he certainly popularized) a hybrid of the kiriha zukuri tanto and the bowie. This blade combined a kiriha tanto with its point in the center of the blade and a bevelled straight clip back.

My question is very simple. Did Ernest Emerson invent this blade profile?




I believe he did.

Ernest Emerson was first listed as a knife maker in Knives '89 on page 178. The entry lists his first knife sold in 1983. The first photo of an Ernest Emerson knife appeared in 'Knives 89 on page 32. It was a spearpoint blade, folding knife with a linerlock.

Ernest Emerson's knives were photographed several times in the following years, none of them having a profile combining the kiriha zukuri tanto with a clip blade. His first knife with this particular profile is shown in Knives '94 on page 137. I believe this may be one of the earliest photographs of the CQC profile, though it probably appeared in a number of magazines at the time as well.

Based on this research, I cautiously date "the CQC profile" as circa 1993 (since the photos for Knives '94 were submitted a year earlier).

The CQC profile was most clearly shown a year later in Knives '95 on page 145 on both a folding and fixed blade. In both cases, the knives show all the essential features of the design: the point is in the center of the blade, not in line with the top of the blade. The edge style is a kiriha zukuri tanto. Lastly, the knife has a straight clip point.

Ernest Emerson's CQC profile was an immediate success and suddenly everyone was copying it and continues to do so. However, I've never seen anyone use that profile before Ernest Emerson.

Therefore, I claim he was the first to do so, and it is his invention. Is there any conclusive proof to either confirm or deny this?

Thanks!

 

[MORIMOTOM]

good research and interesting reading. i am not aware of any knives with the cqc profile that predate ernies design for benchmade.

 

[SIFU1A]

a few points of my own.............

*before you so graciously brought it up i have NEVER heard ernie EVER claim to have ANYTHING to do with a kuriha zukuri tanto, nothing.

*ernie made lotsa knives pre '90 (also called "pre-tacs) of several different profiles/shapes/etc, as a matter of fact a forum memeber had some of his early stuff and sold it off a few yrs ago.

*his 1st tac knife was a viper not a CQC, yes it was a tanto though IIRC some were spearpoint also.

*i have NEVER heard ANYONE use the term CQC profile concerning emersons, not custom and not production, CQC means "close quarter combat" and the CQC LINE of knives (ie CQC5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) include spear points, rhino blades, tantos and bowies. so i dont know WTF you are talking about with that term.

so did he invent that profile??

i would say some japanese guy probably invented the tanto profile, i have always heard bob lum americanised the tanto FWIW.

i know where ya could find out, the emerson forum (no not the EKI forum) but after all of your posts about mick strider they would never let ya on the board imho, so i dont know were ya could find out. i would love to see ya post there though, lol, talk about a chilly reception lol.

does anything about knives interest ya other than this?????

 

[killerskill]

I'd be the first to jump on someone for ripping off Emerson designes, because Emersons are my #1 knives. But i'mnot sure strider ripped the ''american tanto'' from emerson. Ripping a general blade shape is one thing, like a bowie or clip point, But completly cloneing a knife is another

 

[killerskill]

I started the thread in the good bad in ugly where cold steel rips off strider, and ever since that this guy(VAAKO) has been trying to say strider is the rip off artists, by rippin the ''american tanto'' off Emerson, and talking trash about Strider. Who is this guy, where does he come from, and is this all he talks about? I came over to the Emerson board to chill and here he is talking about the kuriha zukuri tanto again. JEEZ:barf:

 

[Vaako]

Killerskill, let's not turn this into a repeat of another thread.

I've asked a simple question about an Emerson blade profile, not some other brand. This is the Emerson forum which is about Emerson knives so it's the right place to ask. Please do us both a favor and stay OT, okay?

SIFU1A, Ernest Emerson's site did say, however, he's the Originator (with a capital O). Check the ad copy for the "Emerson CQC-7B Models":

This is the knife that revolutionized the entire cutlery industry. Every knife company has their version of this knife but they fall far short when compared to the "real deal." Now the knife is available from the Originator, Emerson Knives.​

In describing his "HD-7D", the tenth anniversary version of the CQC the description states:

The Emerson CQC-7 is the most popular tactical folder of all times. A knife that has attained the elusive, "Legend" status. The design that started the Tactical Knife genre and changed the face of the entire cutlery industry. ​

Is he talking about the knife, the blade, both? That's why I'm asking the question here, where Emerson fans and expert collectors would likely know.

Yes, Ernest Emerson made a lot of knives before the 1990s. If you check my first post, I mention that his original listing in the Knives series was in K'89 and the listing states his first knife was sold in 1983.

Yes, he made other knives without the tanto shape. I mention that as well and we agree that the kiriha zukuri tanto was invented in Japan. Emerson did something (I believe) completely new with that tanto shape and that's what I'm asking about.

I don't know what the proper Emerson Knives description is for this blade style. I called it a CQC because it's on a CQC. Sure, other Emerson knives that aren't CQCs now have it as well. It's on a bunch of Emerson fixed blades and folders.

Do you know what Emerson Knives or the collectors call that blade profile? Not the knife, what is that blade called? If you'll correct me with the proper, accepted name for this blade, I'd appreciate it.

EDIT: As a correction to the earlier date I gave, I've just learned that Ernest Emerson first combined the straight clip point with a kiriha zukuri even earlier than 1993. The following photo from the Emerson Knives website show such a knife in the upper right hand corner circa 1988, a full five years earlier.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

i think it would be fair to say that referring to the tanto ernie uses on the 7 series as the cqc. it is the most common and well known of his blade designs, and the other cqc's came after.

i am aware ernie made knives before the benchmade cqc model, but that is the one that really put him on the map.

 

[SIFU1A]

he made a CQC5 and a CQC6 prior to the '7 and the '6 is considered the flagship model which is why there has never been a production '6 and according to ernie there will never be,

generally, collectors call the tanto a tanto FWIW.

i have NEVER heard anyone call it anything else.

and again its not correct to call them CQC generically its the CQC LINE of knives, not any particular model.

oh i suppose ya can call it whatever ya want but no ones gonna know WTF ya are talking about, which is not far from where we are now.

as i said give me an email and i'll send ya a link to the emerson forum, but they are gonna tell ya the same thing.

i am gonna tell ya one more time, i collect emersons, customs and productions, i have seen just about everything he makes from the early stuff like the pretacs to the later stuff which includes the rhino knives and the CQC6's which have toothpicks in the handle like a swiss army knife to name a couple and NO ONE has EVER said that ernie emerson invented the tanto ya keep mentioning, and the term "CQC" doesnt refer to any one knife, its the line of knives.



Cvettercr1@aol.com

 

[MORIMOTOM]

he made a CQC5 and a CQC6 prior to the '7 and the '6 is considered the flagship model which is why there has never been a production '6 and according to ernie there will never be,

generally, collectors call the tanto a tanto FWIW.

i have NEVER heard anyone call it anything else.

and again its not correct to call them CQC generically its the CQC LINE of knives, not any particular model.

oh i suppose ya can call it whatever ya want but no ones gonna know WTF ya are talking about, which is not far from where we are now.

as i said give me an email and i'll send ya a link to the emerson forum, but they are gonna tell ya the same thing.

i am gonna tell ya one more time, i collect emersons, customs and productions, i have seen just about everything he makes from the early stuff like the pretacs to the later stuff which includes the rhino knives and the CQC6's which have toothpicks in the handle like a swiss army knife to name a couple and NO ONE has EVER said that ernie emerson invented the tanto ya keep mentioning, and the term "CQC" doesnt refer to any one knife, its the line of knives.



Cvettercr1@aol.com

ok, not necessary. im not looking to argue, but i knew which blade he was referring to.

 

[SIFU1A]

not argueing with you mori,

 

[MORIMOTOM]

not argueing with you mori,

i know, and i dont fault you at all for countering vaakos points. the whole cold steel/emerson/strider debate is getting old.

i dont have nearly as much knowledge about eki as you do, though i have some.

personally i have never referred to his tanto as the cqc blade, i was just saying i knew to what he was referring.



perhaps 'argue' was a poor choice of word,

 

[SIFU1A]

I started the thread in the good bad in ugly where cold steel rips off strider, and ever since that this guy(VAAKO) has been trying to say strider is the rip off artists, by rippin the ''american tanto'' off Emerson, and talking trash about Strider. Who is this guy, where does he come from, and is this all he talks about? I came over to the Emerson board to chill and here he is talking about the kuriha zukuri tanto again. JEEZ:barf:

imho he is trolling..................why else would someone whos interested in knives insult the likes of tom mayo and others just because they answer his questions in a way he doesnt agree with?? or just because they call mick strider a friend?? makes me wonder WTF, why be so personal about it, if ya dont like strider dont buy them, or mayos, or..........

 

[SIFU1A]

i know, and i dont fault you at all for countering vaakos points. the whole cold steel/emerson/strider debate is getting old.

i dont have nearly as much knowledge about eki as you do, though i have some.

personally i have never referred to his tanto as the cqc blade, i was just saying i knew to what he was referring.



perhaps 'argue' was a poor choice of word,

nah i wasnt thinking about you at all, bud, and yes the debate is getting old, how in the heck did it end up in the EKI forum lol, oh well......

 

[MORIMOTOM]

nah i wasnt thinking about you at all, bud, and yes the debate is getting old, how in the heck did it end up in the EKI forum lol, oh well......

i have no idea, really. i think it is active in four different forums.

 

[Vaako]

imho he is trolling..................why else would someone whos interested in knives insult the likes of tom mayo and others just because they answer his questions in a way he doesnt agree with?? or just because they call mick strider a friend?? makes me wonder WTF, why be so personal about it, if ya dont like strider dont buy them, or mayos, or..........

If you want to see trolling behavior go back to the thread in question and re-read all the pointless obnoxious "digs" a whole bunch of people posted, doing their best to derail the discussion. Poetry anyone?

Where did I insult Tom Mayo or anyone on this thread? Tom Mayo hasn't even posted on this thread. Don't worry, I understand what your point, but I hope you understand mine. Please don't drag all the garbage from one thread onto this one, okay?

This isn't about Strider. It isn't about Cold Steel. So would you please not drag the subject back onto them over and over and over again? Is that too much to ask?

I'm not an expert on Emerson, so I'd hoped that the experts and collectors would have some solid info that Emerson either did invent the blade or that he did not. I'd hoped that an Emerson authority here would have some sort of proof, maybe a link to some major interview or a link to a magazine scan where Emerson discusses this design and how it came about. Something like that.

and NO ONE has EVER said that ernie emerson invented the tanto ya keep mentioning.

Sifu1A, did you read the ad copy from Ernest Emerson's site I linked?

Ernest Emerson's site did say, however, he's the Originator (with a capital O). Check the ad copy for the "Emerson CQC-7B Models":

This is the knife that revolutionized the entire cutlery industry. Every knife company has their version of this knife but they fall far short when compared to the "real deal." Now the knife is available from the Originator, Emerson Knives.

What is an Originator? Someone who creates new things. New things, as in nobody created them before. Derived from "origin". 2b: the point at which something begins or rises or from which it derives...

In describing his "HD-7D", the tenth anniversary version of the CQC the description states:

The Emerson CQC-7 is the most popular tactical folder of all times. A knife that has attained the elusive, "Legend" status. The design that started the Tactical Knife genre and changed the face of the entire cutlery industry.

Just because "NO ONE" ever said Emerson invented that blade doesn't mean he didn't. Emerson's own site calls him the Originator. Are you claiming he's wrong? If you think so, post proof that he is. "NO ONE" has shown that Emerson didn't invent it and "NO ONE" has said a peep about that photo of an Emerson knife with the clip point and the kiriha zukuri tanto dated 1988.

 

[SIFU1A]

what about the photo?? that photo means what??

as far as "originator" imho ernies talking about he made the ORIGINAL CQC7 which BM made for a while, then EKI started making, so he is the originator of the CQC7 not BM, thats what he means, not he is the originator of anything else.

ya sure badmouthed tom mayo and others on the other thread and you know which one i mean.

i'll still send ya a link to the emerson collectors forum and ya can argue with them about emersons for a while.

other than that i really dont know what you want to hear.

em me at Cvettercr1@aol.com for the link, if ya REALLY wanna know go and ask them, they would know, IF they will let ya on the board, anyway.

 

[Vaako]

SIFU1A, that photo is the most interesting part of all!

Check the date: circa 1988. According to the Emerson site, those knives were made around 1988. The CQC may have been first made around 1993, based on the photo appearing in Knives '94, but the tanto knife in the upper right hand corner of that photo is five years older!

It has the kiriha zukuri "angled tanto" blade edge and a long, straight clip point. The clip is even longer and pointer than the CQC, but it's on an Emerson!

All this time, I've been saying over and over, "Ernest Emerson made a knife like that, with that design style first". For anyone to prove otherwise, they're going to have to find proof dated earlier than 1988, not 1993!

I won't deny it, finding that photo truly made my day.This puts the date of Emerson's innovation even further back!

Thanks for the offer to join the other forum. Yes, I REALLY want to know. However, you've also told me several times (on this thread and mainly elsewhere) that I'm likely to get a chilly reception and a lot of flack.

I'll take your word for it; if I need abusive people trying to shout me down because they dislike honest scholarship, I get plenty of that here on Blade Forums already.

Fortunately that sort of thing hasn't started on this thread and I'd like to keep it that way.

 

[killerskill]

Why would I do you any favors VAAKO.

 

[jbravo]

If you ever actually owned one of Ernie's knives, you wouldn't keep posing this inane question. NONE of Ernie's actual knives, not the fixed blades he first established his Teams contacts with, nor any of his folders, bear the slightest real resemblance to the fixed blades made by Mad Dog, Strider Knives, Tom Maringer (whose knives pre-date Ernie's by nearly a decade), to name a few, or a dozen other geometric blade makers. Bob Terzuola made a nice tanto bladed fixed blade in the late '80s...maybe Ernie ripped it off? His fixed blade knives pre-date the CQC line by several years, but you don't even know when they started, only what Knives Illustrated tells you!

Do you see how stupid your repetitive little rant is? Ernie's genius lies in his ability to combine old elements in a distinctive way. Hold one, though, and you will see how absurd it is to think it is the precursor of the genre.

Of course, that is not your purpose.

 

[Vaako]

My purpose is to find conclusive proof resolving this issue.

NONE of Ernie's actual knives, not the fixed blades he first established his Teams contacts with, nor any of his folders, bear the slightest real resemblance to the fixed blades made by Mad Dog, Strider Knives, Tom Maringer (whose knives pre-date Ernie's by nearly a decade), to name a few, or a dozen other geometric blade makers.

...except for the fact that no other makers seems to have made a "clip point tanto" before Ernest emerson.. Show me proof that a knife combining a clip point and a kiriha zukuri tanto was made by another maker before him.

If you think Bob Terzuola made that kind of knife first, go find it! IIRC, some of Bob's knives were sent in wooden storage cases with a label on the inside showing the date. A photo of the knife, showing its blade, in its case dated before 1988, would certainly stand as proof.

but you don't even know when they started, only what Knives Illustrated tells you!

Ken Warner's (and now Joe Kertzman's) "Knives" series have been the definitive industry annual for over 20 years. They are an visual record of the cutlery industry, particularly custom knives, and predate many of the things we take for granted today, including the internet and the personal computer. I'm surprised you'd be so dismissive of such an important historical archive.

My claim is supported both by the Knives series and the Emerson Collector's Association site. Your claim is supported by, well, your opinion.

Do you see how stupid your repetitive little rant is?

What's really stupid is how people keep telling me I'm "wrong" without being able to offer any proof to the contrary. Those same people are also very repetitive but none of them can deliver a shred of proof to back up their hot air. Now that's stupid and repetitive.

Hold one, though, and you will see how absurd it is to think it is the precursor of the genre.

Are you claiming Ernest Emerson is "absurd"? Did you read the copy on the Emerson Knives site I posted earlier?

Let me re-post it, just for you.

Check the ad copy for the "Emerson CQC-7B Models":

This is the knife that revolutionized the entire cutlery industry. Every knife company has their version of this knife but they fall far short when compared to the "real deal." Now the knife is available from the Originator, Emerson Knives.

In describing his "HD-7D", the tenth anniversary version of the CQC the description states:

The Emerson CQC-7 is the most popular tactical folder of all times. A knife that has attained the elusive, "Legend" status. The design that started the Tactical Knife genre and changed the face of the entire cutlery industry.

Ernie's genius lies in his ability to combine old elements in a distinctive way.

If you genuinely believe that, where's the disagreement? I've been saying as much all along!

Clip point blades are an old element. Ernest Emerson didn't invent them.

Kiriha zukuri tanto blades are an old element, too. Ernest Emerson didn't invent them, either.

Ernest Emerson's genius is that he combined those two elements in a distinctive way, just like you said, and came up with a blade shape that hasn't been seen anywhere else before. That's what innovation is all about.