a Hydrogen generator , fuel for a forge (;>)) I need help

[Dan Gray]

Because nitrogen dosen't burn ???

you missunderstood, I'm looking at the process not the product.

I do believe he is referring to a method to "scrub" the O out of the HHO gas, thus reducing the concerns with the O2 sensors on FI Cars.

:thumbup: thanks

Im not bad at the electronics gig if the thing with J falls trough PM me.

I just may do that J has not commented on this?

Dan ya might check a diesel forum and see how the're running their dual setups. also the hydrogen garage has a phone number and I know from experiance ther're good to deal with:thumbup:

I'll have to look into that nitrogen thing... but it would seem to me it would not be an "on demand" system like the HHO generators are.

I tried copper plates the other day just to see if it would work... YIKES I'd never seen copper corrode before my very eyes! it worked but the water solution immediatly started turning blue green and only after about 1 minute of working it had that bluegreen copper patina all over it! oh well back to the ole drawing board... I might try a freestanding coil in a coil set up and see if that produces well too

yes the filter sty might get a little large for automotive use.. but may be ok for storage of the gas ? of course more costs and dangers involved that way..

as far as copper, I can see it corroding if you are using electrolytes..
thanks for the link I'll look in to that :thumbup:

 

[jimmyseymour]

Have you guys seen this site http://hytechapps.com/ I contacted them in the past thinking that using there system would allow me to set it up to a forge, allowing me to stay away from propane and be totalled self sufficient. This was several years ago and the price was around 7000.00 for there system, no telling now. There using a microwave to make the HHO gas instead of electrolysis. In the navy we had about 10 minutes of training on a similar item called a water torch. They showed us pictures of them using one for melting metal shaving to a shaft and remachining it. Other than that this is the only other application I have seen it used in. At that price I'm not sure how long it would take for it to pay for itself. They also have a smaller unit they are using on cars.

 

[micad]

Ed,

A few questions come to mind......

First, what steps need to be taken to keep the generator from freezeing in the winter?

Second, have you noticed any change in the performance of your Toyota after haveing installed the HHO generator?

And lastly, have you noticed any changes in the temperature that you Toyota runs at?

-Mike-

 

[Ed Caffrey]

Hi Mike!

I've been trying to figure out the "freezing" issue ever since I started playing with this stuff. Lord knows it's gona freeze in Montana! I've read a lot of stuff online about adding stuff like alcohol, windshield washer fluid, and stuff like that, but can find no accounts where folks have actually used in and had it work. As cold weather grows nearer here in Montana, I'm thinking of two things.... one is a battery warmer, and the other is one of the pipe tapes with a built in thermostat, that kicks on a 38F. Neither will do any good if I'm away from someplace I can "plug in", but those are my best thoughts for now. As we get more into cold weather here, I might try the windshield washer thing just to see how it does. If I find something I'll let folks know.

As far as performace goes....I've noticed a BIG difference! I have the hydrogen generator hooked up through a rocker switch inside the cab, and can turn it off/on at will. Without the generator running, the truck is just plain "doggy", meaning that I usually have to put my foot on the floor to get up any speed. With the generator running, I rarely have to push the pedal past half throttle.
The first generator I built was the Water4Gas design, and I ran it into the engine via vaccum ports at the base of the carb. The latest version I'm using is based ont he Smack's booster design, which I hooked up by putting a "T" in the line that runs from the valve cover breather hole, to the base of the air cleaner.....seems to be working great.

The only time I noticed any difference in running temps was when we had a few days of 95-100F temps. I have an electric fan on my truck, with the thermostat set about 190F. On those hot days I noticed the fan would kick on and off more often than normal, but otherwise nothing else. The last several days have been very mild, with temps in the 50s-60s, and even after running all over town on errands, everything was normal.

The first hydrogen generator that I built used baking soda for the electrolyte.....did that thing ever get hot! At that time I was using about 1 tsp. per quart of distilled water. I've since switched to Potassium Hydroxide, with 1 tsp per gallon of water, and have had no heat issues on the device since.

I admit that I was a brazen skeptic about this stuff until I built a unit myself and tried it. Terms like "snake oil" came to my mind when I first started reading/learning about it.
I did some "guestimation" today, and in the last week I have put over 150 miles on the truck, and only used 1/4 tank of gas. I think I might be getting close to my goal of 40 mpg with this version of hydrogen generator. I'll have to wait until the next fill up to really know, but for what its worth, I'm a believer now.

 

[SteelSlaver]

I can and have built some circuit boards. Do you have a schematic and a component list. I I think I still have some stuff around. I made my own unloopers and components for modifying smart cards in years past.

 

[Ed Caffrey]

You can find the parts list for the Smack's booster here: http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/Smack.pdf

I don't know much about the electronics involved, as they would be needed for vehicles with computers, neither of my trucks have computers (both are carbed, pre 1988 models).

From what I understand, vehicles with computers will require what they call MAPP sensor modules, and some tinkering to make the hydrogen generators work for them. From all the accounts that I've read, on a vehicle with a computer, the O2 sensor sends a signal to the computer that the fuel mixture is too lean when running HHO, and the computer dumps more fuel to the intake/injectors, negating any benefit from the HHO device. Many have claimed that they defeat this issue mearly by taking the O2 sensor out of the exhaust, and adding a spark plug spacer , while others have had to go the whole route with the MAPP module, which is suppose to over ride the signals being sent to the computer from certain onboard sensors. Thats only what I have read. But it makes sense to me.

 

[micad]

Thanks Ed!

I know what you mean about having been a skeptic. I first read about some of this a little over a year ago and quickly dismissed it, like you said, as "snake oil". It looks like I shouldn't have so quick to disount it.

Now I need to do some more research to figure out how to make it work on my '01 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4. Dang computers anyway!

After having asked the question about dealing with the freezeing issue I remembered that there was a 12 volt heating pad that stuck (like tape) onto the water tank in our old RV (sold it a few years ago) that came on at around 40 degrees. Should be something similar available at your local RV dealers?? Just a thought.

-Mike-

 

[Will Leavitt]

My understanding of trying to use hydrogen in open combustion is don't.... there's a site where a guy was trying to make a hyrdogen barbeque grill but wound up with a really high tech potato cannon.

Sooo the hydrogen boosters really work???? I always thought them rather fishy. I have a 91 Chevy though so it's fuel injected :'(

Dan have you thought of making a waste oil forge?

 

[Steven Penner]

Snake oil ? my first thoughts too. I'm still a sceptic and waiting for some real data from reliable sources. Watching here closely.

I still can't get past that whole Law of Conservation of Energy...


Regarding performance
Ed, when you say it is a dog without, did you lose performance after installation when it is not switched on (compared to stock)
Possible due to open vacuum lines?
If so, maybe a normally closed solenoid switch can close the vacuum lines when not switched on?

Regarding freezing
This would apply to me also
It is possible that the electrolyte you are adding may change the freezing temperature of the solution.

Have you tried putting a bottle of the solution in the freezer for a week?
It would be an interesting quick and dirty test.
Much simpler if extra electric heaters and such are not required.

If this does work for FI cars, i am interested.
Why not just collect the H2 and skip all the electronic o2 sensor messing about?
If anyone has an info link for this, I'm interested.

 

[Ed Caffrey]

Hi Steve! I doubt the perceived performance increase is due to a vac leak when its not running. The unit is airtight, and dosen't use any vacuum to get the HHO to the intake. As the unit creates HHO, it makes its own positive pressure, forcing the gas out the only available opening....the line that goes to the base of the air cleaner. With it shut down, it has the same effect as a plug would on a vacuum line. Like you, I was a major skeptic, after the first model I built/installed, my MPG went up nearly 10. If my guess is right, this latest device should be getting me close to 40 MPG from a baseline of 22. I'm still a little wet behind the ears with this technology, and certainly don't have all the answers, but I'm convinced its working. Last month I went through 1/2 the fuel I usually do. I have no idea how you would just go about collecting the H. It took me a while to realize this, but all the sensors on a vehicle are calibrated for an engine that only gets 30-50% fuel efficiency, when we force it to go outside those preset parameters, its going to try to correct things within its programming.......which in this case means the O2 sensor in the exhaust would read too much 02 and not enough fuel in the exhaust, and it will signal the fuel delivery system to add more fuel until the O2 sensor achieves a a reading within it's preset parameters. The MAPP modules that I have read about are designed to override those signals, and basically fool the computer into believing everything is fine. Had my rigs had computers, I suspect I would have had a much more difficult time getting this stuff to work. As it is, all I had to do was some very minor tweaking on the timing, and slightly lean out the main jets on the carb. Neither of which was required to actually make it work, but by doing those things I might have squeezed another mile or two per gallon out of it.

 

[MVF]

How come the O2 isn't getting used up in the burn? Is there that much of it?

 

[Ed Caffrey]

From what I understand, its not that there is any more O2 going through the exhaust sensor, its that there is less unburned fuel, which makes the O2 sensor read a lower exhaust temp, triggering it to register the mixture as being too lean. In response the computer signals for additional fuel. It took me a while to understand it, but once the light did come one, its easy.... the O2 sensor is like a thermocouple, and when it doesn't sense a temp within the programmed specified parameters, it sends a signal to the computer to ether enrich or lean out the fuel until the readings are within its programmed range.

Burning HHO raises the efficiency of an engine, and instead of the engine only actually burning 35-50% of the fuel (the rest goes out the exhaust pipe in a gaseous state), it helps an engine to burn, some say, in the 60-80% efficiency range. Again, I don't have proof of that, beyond what I've read and learned, but it makes sense to me.

 

[bubbzoo]

I'm new here and I don't really know squat about all of this and I just came to learn about knives. BUT I couldn't help to read about this and throw in my $.02 for what it's worth.

I have an old Fiat Spyder I did a frame off restore on. I'm not a gear head or an electrical guru but I know I needed a new O2 sensor on it and I bought a "universal" one to put on. The instructions for the universal one indicated the the wire on the new one had to match (be cut to) the length of the old one. The resistance of the wire due to it's length sent the proper voltages back to the EGR. Perhaps the fix for the O2 sensor problem could be as easy as changing the length of the wire on the O2 sensor to trick the EGR for EFI engines. Then again maybe not. It would be inexpensive to experiment with though.

Bubbz

 

[Steven Penner]

It's simple to collect just the H2 gas.
If using DC current, one electrode generates 02 and one generates H2

I'm curious to see some plans for the electronics...anyone have some ???

Does it use DC or AC. beyond the need for the "on demand", what electronics are required.

In all my googles i see a lot of testimonials and hype
(which is my first instinct to run away...)
but no info...

anybody point me to specs on the electronic guts???





ED

Did ya try freezing your solution ?

 

[Ed Caffrey]

Hi Steve!

I can't advise you much on the electronics. Here's a link to the forum where I have gathered much of my information.... http://www.hhoforums.com/index.php I've read about the MAPP modules, and seen them for sale on Ebay, but since I don't need them on my truck, I've not studied them. All the HHO devices I've built are connected with one positive 12VDC wire, ran through a 30amp relay, straight from the battery, and the negative side is just grounded to the vehicle frame.

If you do a google search for either HHO, or HHO cell, you will find tons of information. The problem is sorting out the wheat from the chaff. Its become a hobby for me, and after a long day in the shop, I sometime just sit in front of the computer and learn more about all this HHO stuff.

I've not tried freezing the electrolyte yet....but the way the weather is turning here, I probably should be looking into it soon.

 

[Scriven]

From the whole thing I got the impression that in order to use HHO outside of internal combustion purposes, it would require an incredible amount of electricity to generate the required amount of HHO, which would offset any saving you might achieve by using the HHO as the primary fuel.

There are small hydrogen torches for applications requiring low oxygen, but these are inefficient too.

One feller recently published a paper on using a specific frequency radio waves for hydrolysis that causes salt water to burn like gasoline. OT NOTE - He used a machine that kills cancer cells with radio waves similar to the Rife generator.

As far as hydrogen energy goes, it burns much hotter than propane or even acetylene. As long as the application involves the storage of heat such as a forge or furnace, hydrogen should excel at the task.

Bob Boyce may have the key to efficient hydrogen production- perhaps involving less input energy than the returned calories of output energy!

http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Transportation/Bob_Boyce/

 

[bubbzoo]

Google John Kansas. He uses a radio frequency generator to make HHO using salt water. Neat stuff

 

[Ice Czar]

there is another good way to produce hydrogen
from carbon, limestone, iron, tin and steam
which gets you both hydrogen and carbon monoxide,
it also produces cement and captures trace metals present in your fuel stock (coal, biomass, waste)

Scale is the basic issue
The Department of Defense is trying to get a miniature version

of course its a bit of a step to go from running a forge to running a bath smelter
But a lab sized smelter presents all sorts of possibilities in employing waste heat.

http://www.diversified-energy.com/index.cfm?s_webAction=hydromax
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cach...ns-dod-contract.html&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
there are quite a few patents involved but 6110239 (pat2pdf) is the main one

limestone as a flux\slag, tin to capture sulfur, trace metals generally end up in the iron

 

[WadeH]

Man yall really had my ears perked up about this hydrogen stuff right up to the point that it does not work good on newer cars. Bummer. Good luck Dan with your buiild, hope it works for you.