A little off-center ... but far from O/T

[Will York]

A recent thread started me thinking about the history of Busse’s asymmetrical edge, here:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=715572

Looking back to the days of the Busse Basic line, I recall no one knew much about convex edges back then. I remember an old thread about a Marbles knife with a convex edge, in which the consensus was, "Out of the box it may cut like crazy, but how are you going to sharpen it on a whetstone?"

A few people were just starting to experiment with stropping compounds and sandpaper over mouse pads in 2000, but that was pushing the envelope back then.

Now EVERYBODY convexes their Busse edges, an evolution I think of those early beginnings and the discovery of what convex edges have to offer. Busse’s asymmetrical edge grind actually one-upped the convex edge by making one side of the edge almost flat, thereby drastically reducing "drag" (friction) on that side of the cut. Anyone who has chopped with a Basic 9 or original SHBM with asymmetrical edge knows what that edge is capable of. I remember Noss’ testing of a Basic 9 and the surprised tone in his voice as he chopped into a 2x4, remarking that the blade was “taking really deep bites”.

I think one problem with the asymmetrical edge was that if you dinged the edge beyond normal blunting, you had to know how to restore a convex edge, and back then people didn't know how to do that. The sharpening instructions from Busse (to draw the edge across a ceramic rod with edge trailing) worked fine UNTIL they dinged/rolled the edge, and then they were in a bit of a pickle. And what's the use of having an indestructible blade if you can't ding the edge now and then?

I can't help but wonder what would happen if Jerry began offering the asymmetrical edge again, possibly as an option/alternative to the “standard” grind? It was definitely ahead of its time back in the 1990’s, but now I think it might well receive a welcome worthy of the returning conquering hero.

Thoughts?

 

[Silas]

I can remember years ago sending a BM-E back to Busse to have the Asymmetrical edge removed.

I was afraid of what I didn't understand.

 

[kdstrick]

Good post Will. :thumbup: I was thinking about this very topic the other day. Why did Busse stop producing the asym edge? In some old threads I've read, it seemed to cut like nobody's business. I haven't owned one with an asym edge... but I really do need to get my hands on a basic and try one out. It would seem to offer a bit of the best of both worlds.

 

[Bigfattyt]

Another good question is can the Custom Shop take a convex edge, or a v grind and make it asymetrical?

 

[Raining]

Another good question is can the Custom Shop take a convex edge, or a v grind and make it asymetrical?

Don't see why not. Wouldn't convexing only one side of a v grind make it asymetrical? Or is there more to it?

 

[pbubsy]

Another good question is can the Custom Shop take a convex edge, or a v grind and make it asymetrical?

I've heard of that being done, you can also order one with an asymmetrical edge to my recollection. Great post. I've used a SHBM, BME NOE and a BAE with the asymmetrical and loved it. Very well performing easy to maintain. Hard to look at. I was always thinking: "Hey! My edge is uneven!"

 

[Lycosa]

I'd love to BCK do a run of the AE.
My Black Bear Folder has a asymmetrical edge that's just killa. :thumbup:

 

[PeterPHWS]

Don't see why not. Wouldn't convexing only one side of a v grind make it asymetrical? Or is there more to it?

To get the edge to "centre" on the spine there is a different taper applied to each "flat" .... otherwise if it is done on a traditional V grind the edge is off centre .... but there is a lot more to Asymetrical Edges than you might imagine .... let me just check some of my "off the top of my head" recollection and I will do another post.

 

[PeterPHWS]

Sorry guys....my computer is playing up tonight .... worried I might have this photobucket virus .... anyway ... I did a post on how Asymetrical Grinds were developed by the Japanese with the origins in a chisel grind which goes back to AD 700 and the asymetrical development being done by AD 1250 ... went on to explain in more detail the history and then .... lost my connection .... either AOL is really playing up or it's a bug in my computer .... and I have'nt got time to re-type it all ... but suffice to say the Asymetrical Grind has a long history behind it and some very good master swordsmiths preferred it during the intense period of feudal warlords battling in Japan when the requirements for great swords exceeded the speed at which they could be supplied ... so the faster polishing and sharpening of the asymetrical grind was used over the longer and more time consuming convex grind...

 

[Will York]

Sorry guys....my computer is playing up tonight .... worried I might have this photobucket virus .... anyway ... I did a post on how Asymetrical Grinds were developed by the Japanese with the origins in a chisel grind which goes back to AD 700 and the asymetrical development being done by AD 1250 ... went on to explain in more detail the history and then .... lost my connection .... either AOL is really playing up or it's a bug in my computer .... and I have'nt got time to re-type it all ... but suffice to say the Asymetrical Grind has a long history behind it and some very good master swordsmiths preferred it during the intense period of feudal warlords battling in Japan when the requirements for great swords exceeded the speed in which they could be supplied ... so the faster polishing and sharpening of the asymetrical grind was used over the longer and more time consuming convex grind...

Cool stuff, Peter. Thanks for delving! :thumbup:

 

[Jack Shen]

I thought most of his CG knives were asymetrical. I swear that my HG and BWM were asymetically ground. Or maybe one side just appears more convex than the other on a lot of his knives?

 

[pbubsy]

I thought most of his CG knives were asymetrical. I swear that my HG and BWM were asymetically ground. Or maybe one side just appears more convex than the other on a lot of his knives?

Trust me, if it were asymmetrical there wouldn't be a question of it. They haven't regularly ground asymmetrical edges since the ergo series. Was pretty short lived. People tend to like symmetry.

 

[Jack Shen]

@ pbubsy

ah cool deal, trying to figure it out was driving me up the wall. One side of the HG and BWM were more "convex" then the other, but you're right, I went back and checked real close on the BWM. The left side has a much more subtle arch to it. I had to lay something flat against the edge to see the arch.

 

[pbubsy]

@ pbubsy

ah cool deal, trying to figure it out was driving me up the wall. One side of the HG and BWM were more "convex" then the other, but you're right, I went back and checked real close on the BWM. The left side has a much more subtle arch to it. I had to lay something flat against the edge to see the arch.

I know what you mean. Very rarely am I happ with the factory edge. Love the knives, love the steel, love the customer service but it seems someone grinds under the influence my BWM edge is uneven as have been many from the shop. Rather than send it back in and possibly get an uneven edge right back I usually do the deed myself or have it reprodiled by bill siegle or Tom krein.

 

[230grains]

I know what you mean. Very rarely am I happ with the factory edge. Love the knives, love the steel, love the customer service but it seems someone grinds under the influence my BWM edge is uneven as have been many from the shop. Rather than send it back in and possibly get an uneven edge right back I usually do the deed myself or have it reprodiled by bill siegle or Tom krein.

Yeah, my boss street had a wire edge near the choil and a a kind of duller tip. No big deal really, knives dull and need to get sharpened anyway.

 

[pbubsy]

Yeah, my boss street had a wire edge near the choil and a a kind of duller tip. No big deal really, knives dull and need to get sharpened anyway.

That's happened too, but my problem is the uneven edge grind...not the knife being dull. I agree, having to sharpen it up is and easy fix but having an edge that transitions from thick to thin in different parts of the knife and is obviously skewed is something I can't live with. I always have it fixed. If it's just by a little bit I can do it myself but regrinding the edge entirely I have done for me :thumbup:

 

[PeterPHWS]

Well moving back along to Will's point ... I think there is a better "informed" reception available to Jerry if he wanted to offer some Asymetrical Grinds ....

Come Monday when everyone is back I might make a long distance call to the Shop ... aside from wanting to know if I can order some changes on my grips ... it would be interesting to ask about an Asymetrical Grind. I have'nt got the money really for rare SHBM's or SHSH's when all I want is to use them. However I would like to ask if I could order a BWBM in an asymetrical grind and a Boss St .... maybe done by the Custom Shop .... and the same knives done normally ... I could probably do that for the price of one SHBM on the exchange .... and then do a review on working with them .... both as they come and subsequently when and if altered.

My inclination is if they would do this that for the BWBM we would have "a very easily maintained in the field" knife at sensible money .... sort of "back to basics" in it's other normal sense ....

Or if they would do it I might even ask about the LE to compare to a Custom Shop SE ...

Anyway ... you can only ask ...:thumbup:


Actually ... I have just realised ... I could do this sort of comparison already ... I could put my SAR 8 up against my Basic 9 :thumbup:

Alrighty then ....

 

[Joshua J.]

What happened to measuring an edge by it's thickness and angle?
Beyond that the edge type doesn't make much of a difference IMO.

 

[PeterPHWS]

What happened to measuring an edge by it's thickness and angle?
Beyond that the edge type doesn't make much of a difference IMO.

It is field sharpening and edge retention where advantages lie in Asymetrical Edges .... and yes ....sharp is sharp ... but edge types do play a part in increasing performance when looked at as an "over all" package ...

 

[Strabs]

Peter PHWS nailed it, but another advantage that I have yet to see anyone mention is the capability of finer slicing and whittling (fuzz sticks, etc.) with an asymetrical edge on larger or thicker blade stock. Not all field work is chopping.

I wish Jerry would do an asymetrical edge offering as an option (like the options offered with the Tank Busters). Otherwise, making that phone call to request it doesn't seem too out of the question.

In addition to it's ease of maintainance, and durability I don't understand why there were so many haters during the Ergo days
Busses knives do not perform everything and anything BEST, but rather everything WELL. The asym. edge lends itsef to finer, delicate field tasks, and the V grind on fat stock is not as capable. Versatility is improved IMHO.

The ONLY disadvantage I can see is when a lefty gets a right hand asymetrical edge. The delicate work, dominate hand aspect requires a goofy positioning of the blade. Too many blades probably came back for reprofile.

IMHO, the Lefties are to blame for it's demise