A Little Story about Fire and Shelter...

[sawgrass7]

Nice post, thanks. Great to hear real-world experience of all kinds.

 

[dextersp1]

If I'd have foregone shelter for just a fire, I might not be here right now.

Nice post.

Hypothermia is the greatest killer in the outdoors. You are fortunate it didn't rain and you didn't get wet.

 

[AeroNautiCal]

I'd put money on the fact that the OP was fully aware of hypothermia and weather factors, and had all bases covered.

 

[dextersp1]

I'd put money on the fact that the OP was fully aware of hypothermia and weather factors, and had all bases covered.

I don't know the OP and what I wrote is no slam on him.

But from looking at his pictures; what do you see that he could approve upon to better his chances against hypothermia when wet?

 

[Rick Marchand]

There is always room for improvement. If you can't look back at your experience and see an area to improve upon, you're not learing. Looking at the pictures, I could not see anything sticking out. He was shelter from rain and his bedding was obvilously warm enough.... what is your opinion on his set up, Dexter?

Rick

 

[dawsonbob]

Really good story, KEmSAT, and good pics, too. Man, that looks like a good time. Looks like your BK-9 has had some bush loving. Nice blade.

 

[AeroNautiCal]

I don't know the OP and what I wrote is no slam on him.

But from looking at his pictures; what do you see that he could approve upon to better his chances against hypothermia when wet?

The OP made this quote in post #19:

Living in the wild, survival, bushcraft, whatever you want to call it...is a lot like playing Chess: learn to think three moves ahead and you'll do fine.

Knowing all the ways you lose heat and the rules of three gives you a headstart on two of them.

The third is mostly situational awareness.

Everytime I walk in my yard I watch my Siberian Husky "Satchmo". Dogs are good at situational awareness. So are deer and squirrel. Deer are damned good at it.

I doubt that the OP would let himself get wet, let alone get wet to the point of hypothermia, however, 4 mil plastic sacks and dry leaves do provide good insulation, especially if you're in the bag, using it as a rain barrier (this presumes an absence of shell clothing!).

 

[dextersp1]

I doubt that the OP would let himself get wet, let alone get wet to the point of hypothermia, however, 4 mil plastic sacks and dry leaves do provide good insulation, especially if you're in the bag, using it as a rain barrier (this presumes an absence of shell clothing!).

I might be wrong but, from the pictures only it looks like a lot of the clothing is cotton. Cotton looses its thermal properties when wet. So, synthetics are a better choice for the wet and cold.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Cotton kills in a misunderstood statment, IMO. Improper use of cotton kills.

Your line of thinking is a good one though, Dexter. Better to eliminate potential problems, right.:thumbup:


Rick

 

[dextersp1]

Cotton kills in a misunderstood statment, IMO. Improper use of cotton kills.

Your line of thinking is a good one though, Dexter. Better to eliminate potential problems, right.:thumbup:


Rick

`Thanks,

I've been learning a lot in the past year from my experiences of hiking in winter conditions in the Colorado 14ers Mts and Teton NP. I hike alone so I have to be as safe as possible - death is a real possibility - falling; hurt or hypothermia. Even while in the mts during the winter I've learned to wear synthetic underpants. I sweated in the cotton ones I was wearing!

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

Dexter has some very valid points:

I was wearing cotton, not a stitch of wool was with me. And cotton can kill you...if it gets drenched and you can't get warm.

But I would like to address this statement:

You are fortunate it didn't rain and you didn't get wet.

Fortune has zilch to do with it. If you trust solely to "fortune" and luck, then you'll wind up on the losing end. If you trust to the seven P's, however, you don't have to worry about "fortune".

Previous Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

If you know all the ways you lose body heat, Dexter, you can combat them with a good shelter, or knowing what to look for in a natural shelter, and augmenting it.

Besides, I had garbage bags plenty big enough to make raingear out of. I would have been as dry as a bone. As long as your body can maintain core heat you won't die from Hypothermia, being a little damp isn't an automatic death sentence.

It's all about measures and counter measures, D.

Chess, like I said...think three moves ahead.

Just because wool wicks moisture and retains some of its insulative properties doesn't mean it's a failsafe. You can freeze to death in wool, too...especially if the wind is stirring.

 

[Stormstaff]

Awesome story and pics!!

 

[dextersp1]

Just a couple of points so that others reading this get an idea of all that is involved. They should do their own research for more info.

If you know all the ways you lose body heat, Dexter, you can combat them with a good shelter, or knowing what to look for in a natural shelter, and augmenting it.

Shelters are great unless you have to move.

Besides, I had garbage bags plenty big enough to make raingear out of
I would have been as dry as a bone.

Garbage bags can suffice in an emergency but they don't fit 'Previous Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance" We can plan that rain can happen in the out doors. Good equipment to handle it should be part of the planning. Rain along with humidity, condensation inside the garbage bag (also fragile -get caught on a branch) plus the potential for sweating all lead to poor performance.

As long as your body can maintain core heat you won't die from Hypothermia,

Hypothermia can creep up on you or happen fast - depending upon the circumstances. If your hands are cold; you are shivering or your judgment is impaired by the effects of low temperatures; time might be your enemy - you might not be able to do what is needed.

being a little damp isn't an automatic death sentence.

Not a death sentence but a couple of nights in jail. It is an indication of an issue that should be addressed. If you are sweating your body is telling you that you are using your body's water to keep cool instead to keep hydrated. If you are getting wet from the rain; that indicates a problem.

Just because wool wicks moisture and retains some of its insulative properties doesn't mean it's a failsafe. You can freeze to death in wool, too...especially if the wind is stirring.

Nothing is fail safe. Thinking that something is fail safe is a formula for disaster. Just like gambling it would not rain.

The question is what is safer and better fits the goal of: "Previous Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance"

There are great synthetic soft shell products out there that can handle the harshest elements.

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

Just a couple of points so that others reading this get an idea of all that is involved. They should do their own research for more info.


Shelters are great unless you have to move.

Which is why you don't move....in the rain.

Garbage bags can suffice in an emergency but they don't fit 'Previous Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance" We can plan that rain can happen in the out doors. Good equipment to handle it should be part of the planning. Rain along with humidity, condensation inside the garbage bag (also fragile -get caught on a branch) plus the potential for sweating all lead to poor performance.

If you pack gear for every possible scenario, you'll need a mule. That's why you pack what will suffice in case of an emergency, but still keep light enough not to warrant needing a team of pack horses.

Hypothermia can creep up on you or happen fast - depending upon the circumstances. If your hands are cold; you are shivering or your judgment is impaired by the effects of low temperatures; time might be your enemy - you might not be able to do what is needed.

Happen....fast? You mean like falling into artic temp water and freezing to death within two minutes fast? This is all true, but I don't quite understand what you mean by "fast". You get plenty of indications of hypothermia before you slip into it. You dont just get chilly and then die.

Not a death sentence but a couple of nights in jail. It is an indication of an issue that should be addressed. If you are sweating your body is telling you that you are using your body's water to keep cool instead to keep hydrated. If you are getting wet from the rain; that indicates a problem.

If you are getting wet in an evironment where it shouldn't happen PERIOD, you'll have a problem. Sweat, rain, snow, sleet, dew, falling or jumping into a creek...water is water. Which is why you have to be a little more careful for colder environments.

Not really even a couple of nights in jail if you insulate yourself from heatloss well enough. Your body heat will dry your clothes. If your clothes are soaked, you have to shed the soaked layer and insulate your body anyway. Most of the time you can let them freeze dry and then pick out the ice.

Nothing is fail safe. Thinking that something is fail safe is a formula for disaster. Just like gambling it would not rain.

The question is what is safer and better fits the goal of: "Previous Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance"

There are great synthetic soft shell products out there that can handle the harshest elements.

Who was gambling that it wouldn't rain? Shelter, emergency medium for making a poncho...think I had rain pretty well covered. Oh, you mean I didn't have it covered because I didn't have a full rainsuit.
I'm not saying there aren't products that can handle the elements. I'm saying that sometimes people don't have those pretty pieces of gear and they make do with what they have. A shelter built to insulate you from the wind, the open sky, and ground will keep you safe. Fill it with insulation and dig in and you'll be fine, you might get a little chilly, but you won't die.

 

[dextersp1]

Which is why you don't move....in the rain.

How long will it rain; if you pack gear for every possible scenario, you'll need a mule.

If you pack gear for every possible scenario, you'll need a mule. That's why you pack what will suffice in case of an emergency, but still keep light enough not to warrant needing a team of pack horses.

Horses not needed - Previous Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
Planning = for the probable - rain is probable.

Happen....fast? You mean like falling into artic temp water and freezing to death within two minutes fast? This is all true, but I don't quite understand what you mean by "fast". You get plenty of indications of hypothermia before you slip into it. You dont just get chilly and then die.

"Hypothermia can creep up on you or happen fast - depending upon the circumstances. "

What are the indications?

If you are getting wet in an evironment where it shouldn't happen PERIOD, you'll have a problem. Sweat, rain, snow, sleet, dew, falling or jumping into a creek...water is water. Which is why you have to be a little more careful for colder environments.

What people do you know that don't sweat?

Not really even a couple of nights in jail if you insulate yourself from heatloss well enough. Your body heat will dry your clothes. If your clothes are soaked, you have to shed the soaked layer and insulate your body anyway. Most of the time you can let them freeze dry and then pick out the ice.

So you sit there naked while you let your clothes freeze dry and pick out the ice?

Naked - freezing - hypothermia

Who was gambling that it wouldn't rain? Shelter, emergency medium for making a poncho...think I had rain pretty well covered. Oh, you mean I didn't have it covered because I didn't have a full rainsuit.
I'm not saying there aren't products that can handle the elements. I'm saying that sometimes people don't have those pretty pieces of gear and they make do with what they have. A shelter built to insulate you from the wind, the open sky, and ground will keep you safe. Fill it with insulation and dig in and you'll be fine, you might get a little chilly, but you won't die.

You're so adverse to looking pretty in the outdoors that you'll wear a garbage bag?