A lot of questions on sharpening (Post will be long)

S

Shawn7656

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Feb 15, 2012
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Let me start off by saying that I've been reading through a LOT of threads on this site, as well as many articles on other sites. I've been sharpening free-handed the whole time I've known how to sharpen. I learned in Boy scouts using a small plastic angle guide, but lost it fairly quickly and just eye-balled it since then. I've used a couple different types of stones, and other methods as well (newspaper and leather stropping, quartz, etc, etc). I generally don't count a knife to be sharp until it takes the hairs off of my arm. My view of that being sharp has come into question as of late though, as I realize there's usually quite a bit of pull to the shave, and have only recently learned of the "hair popping" or "tree topping" sharpness; this is something I don't think I've ever managed, though I don't have any ultra-fine grit stones.

As I believe this post is going to get very long I'm going to number my questions and put them all in separate paragraphs to make answering easier (and following the thread easier for those who happen upon it at a later date. You're welcome ;) )

1) My first hope is that someone can direct me to a site/thread that has extensive, in-depth articles on sharpening. I want to learn the fundamentals, the methods, and the reasoning behind everything there is to sharpening. Basically, I want to become extremely educated so as to make sure my techniques are as close to perfect as I can get them ;). I prefer that you do not link to sites that make you pay to read such content as I'm super strapped on cash right now. Something else that would help is articles on the art of stropping, as I'm trying to get better at that because I recently learned that my methods aren't really correct haha.

2) Even though I (think I) can get a great edge on knives, I usually seem to have inconsistencies in sharpness, especially with knives that are lengthy, and knives that have a lot of curvature in the blade. When I do the sharpie on the edge I've found I tend to miss the very start of the cutting edge a lot. Does anyone have any recommendations for me to help me fix this?

3) Although I freehand, would it be more beneficial for me to get an edge-guided system like the Lansky Professional Sharpening Kit? I am looking into purchasing a Benchmade Griptilian and figured if I'm going to be paying for shipping already I may as well buy some sharpening tools, as I lack coarse and ultra-fine stones. This kit looks as though it would make sharpening easier and more consistent for me, as well as give me the coarse and ultra-fine stones I'm in need of. The price doesn't hurt too much either, considering I've bought a single stone more expensive than the whole thing in the past :rolleyes:. Plus, an edge-guided system WOULD be a way to solve #2

4) I've read that as long as you start without using it, you do not need to use water or oil on stones (unless they're Japanese waterstones). I've been doing so, and use my two stones without any liquids. HOWEVER, I do clean them off with water and sometimes a very mild soap. I have a soft-arkansas stone and a Red DMT diafold (which is more a medium than a fine grit). Am I negatively affecting my tools? Should I be doing it a different way?

5) On top of not using water or oil, I actually don't really ever use any liquids in my sharpening process. I've just recently found out you're supposed to use stuff on a leather strop. What is this stuff, what does it do, and what is the best kind?

6) Still on the subject of liquids - Are there any liquids or other materials I should put on my knives after sharpening them that will either benefit the edge or the blade material? I tend to not really do much as far as oiling my knives or anything like that past letting them soak in DW-40 when I know I'll be using them in a wet/humid environment soon. I'll be completely honest and say that I don't know much on maintaining knives. If someone wants to shoot me some really good, informative articles/threads to read on maintenance, I'd appreciate it a lot.

7) When using the sharpie-to-the-edge test, how far up the edge do you mark? Is it just along the very edge of the bevel or along the whole thing? I'm sorta terrible with terminology so if what I just said sounds like I'm crazy it's because I am :D

8) Can I have some tips on sharpening the tip of knives? my current EDCs tip has dulled pretty bad and I've tried sharpening it with little to no success at all.

9) I'd also appreciated tips on sharpening really curvy blades. I have a couple fantasy knives, such as the HAX (This is the only pic I can find of it lol http://goo.gl/7TK9M). While I've gotten it relatively sharp it's SUPER hard to sharpen this thing. It's got really hard steel to top it off hahaha.



Well I think that's it... At least for now ;)
Thanks for reading. I look forward to your answers!
 
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Okay, here are some of my answers:

1. I you have searched around here extensively you should know most of the theory. Stop reading and start practicing! Pic a methode that suit you. It does not matter if it is Murrey Carters, Wayne Goddards, Razor Edge, boyscout methode or something else, they all work. Pic one and practice a few times a week on good knife that you do not mind some scratches on. Go from not cutting newspaper to cutting it well (and later beyond). Look at what you are doing and look at the edge under a strong light to see what is happening to the edge. Look at the scratches.

2. Work more on the parts that are not sharp. Where are the scratches? Are you hitting the edge? Is there still a bur?

3. Kits are not necessary but can help. Practicing helps too and is cheaper :-)

4. I use water with a little soap. I the stone is not glazing over and keeps cutting, all is well.

5. You are revering to stropping. There is no best, most polishing compounds work. It is not necessary to use a strop to get a sharp knife. But it helps and I a good way to maintain the edge. This and other forums, s well as Youtube are chuck full of stropping discussions.

6. On a folder, oil the joints, I use Balistol. For the rest no need.

7. Just the edge, that is what matters.

8. The same as the rest of the edge. There is now special way.

9. Lots of practice ;-)

Stop obsessing, practice, be patient and most of all HAVE FUN!
Sharpening is a skill every body can master. YOU TOO!
 
richard j said:
how would you feel about a powered system that can sharpen just about anything out there in minutes and give you shaving sharp edges? here is a knife i made cutting free hanging newspaper. http://knifetests.com/kII.html
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I tried your link in both Firefox and Chrome and the videos will not load.


@JD: I'm practicing a lot, but I feel my technique needs a bit of improvement, as I'm doing something wrong (or not good enough, whatever the case). It may be as simple as me not having a fine enough stone, but I feel like I cannot get my knives as sharp as I'd like them to be. I'll look into Balistol. I cannot make any purchases for awhile though as I'm super low on cash (I've been out of work for awhile but I'm starting a new job tomorrow).

Thanks for your replies guys, I still hope to hear more people's opinions and wisdom though :)
 
Having spent years (sadly, I'm not kidding) searching for the "one true way" to sharpen a knife I finally settled on the following:


Equipment

1. Two good quality diamond stones, one "coarse" (~350 grit) and another "fine" (1000+ grit). I've tried countless other stones including a dozen variations of arkansas "oil" stones / japanese water stones. I have no doubt that in the right hands these produce superior results but I am simply unable to achieve the consistent results that I can with diamond stones. One drawback of diamond stones is that they remove steel quickly and eventually "remove" your knife over time.

2. An adjustable stone "base" with rubber feet. This is invaluable because it will allow you to use both hands to hold the knife while sharpening instead of using one hand to keep the stone from moving and the other hand to hold the knife. I use a base similar to this one but I'm sure there are plenty of others that will serve the same purpose.

3. A good quality "fine" ceramic rod.

4. A leather strop and some "medium" grit strop paste.

5. An angle measuring tool, something like the Empire 361 small angle magnetic protractor will work fine.


Method
1. Before you do anything make sure that your stones and ceramic rod are clean and dry. You will begin sharpening by honing your knife against the coarse diamond stone. The honing action used simulates "cutting in" to the sharpening surface at a precise angle, as if to cut a slice off of the sharpening surface. The honing angle should take into account the thickness of the blade and is subject to whether you want to create a more durable edge that is a little less sharp or a sharper edge that is a little less durable. I find 20 degrees to be a good angle for most pocket knives but that is just what works for me. 15 degrees would be "sharper" but less durable while 25 degrees would be "less sharp" but more durable. Purchase an angle measuring tool from a hardware store and practice your honing stroke until you can consistently maintain the same exact honing angle every... single... pass. If there is any one "secret" to honing knives, this is it. Know your angle, embed it into muscle memory, and even then periodically double-check your angle using the angle measuring tool. Start sharpening your knife by honing one side of the blade until you raise a noticeable burr that extends the length of the blade and can be easily detected with your thumb. Then (and only then), flip the knife over and hone the other side of the blade (using the same exact angle) until you you have raised the burr extending the length of the opposite side of the blade.

2. Because you have raised the burr and then "bent it back", the burr is pliable and now must be removed. To remove the burr flip the knife back over and apply the original honing stroke to your "fine" grit diamond stone. If you've properly raised the burr and bent it back with the coarse stone, at the same precise angle on both sides, the burr will quickly polish off with no more than a half dozen strokes on the fine diamond stone. Apply two strokes and carefully feel the edge of the knife with your thumb to see whether the burr has been smoothed off. Continue the cycle of applying two strokes and feeling the edge until the burr is honed away. In my experience if the burr does not polish off after 6 strokes then I did not properly raise/bend back the burr with the coarse stone and likely will not achieve a satisfactory result. If this happens it is invariably because I did not maintain a precise honing angle in each direction, when creating/bending back the burr. To remedy this I will triple check my angle with the angle measuring tool when I am creating the burr/bending it back. Once you have removed the burr with the fine stone, flip the knife over and apply 2 or 3 passes on the flip side for consistency sake. At this point you should not be able to feel a burr on either side of your blade and your knife should be extremely sharp if not highly polished. In fact you have already created an ideal "general purpose" edge if you stop now and let the blade retain a bit of toothiness. A "toothy" edge is often considered a better general purpose edge than a finely polished edge because the grain in the edge acts like teeth in a saw and provides superior performance for cutting through rope, cardboard, leather and pretty much everything other than arm hair and single sheets of paper.

3. If you want to put an absolute razor edge on your knife, continue to polish the edge with a few strokes on either side using a fine ceramic rod. Keep in mind that now you are just polishing what is already a very sharp edge so apply minimal pressure with your honing action and limit it ~ 3 - 4 strokes on each side of the blade. Note that a fine ceramic rod can also serve as a good "steel" to realign an otherwise sharp edge that has merely moved off center through use.

4. To maximize the keenness of the edge for shaving off arm hair or slicing through single sheets of newspaper, continue to polish the edge to a mirror finish with a leather strop dressed with medium grit stropping paste. I use "medium grit" stropping paste because in my experience medium razor stropping paste == extra fine knife stropping paste and will quickly provide the last bit of desired polish. When stropping, maintain the exact angle used for honing but reverse the stroke to pull away from rather than push in to the sharpening surface.
 
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That was a nice post man I appreciate it! I have had some good luck with my DMT sharpener, but like you said it does seem to take steel off pretty fast... I'm going to do a lot of research before making a decision on what I buy, and I have time because I'm broke xD
 
boomdelicious said:
FYI if you haven't already seen it, http://www.knifeart.com/sharfaqbyjoe.html is an excellent resource with tips/techniques for knife sharpening.
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This page is very helpful ^ . I remember reading it for the first time, after I'd begun drawing some of my own conclusions. Ah hah, so I'm not alone. At the time I was using my knives pretty hard at work and wound up downgrading my grind until I was using a 60/80 QEP tile rubbing stone (Home Depot). I still have a couple of knives from those days and they're still plenty sharp. These days a mix of vanity and a less rigorous job pace has me refining my edges a bit more. Back then if it could cleanly draw cut (saw cut) through newsprint and exit without catching, it was considered "sharp", even though they could barely shave arm hair.
 
I sent this as a message to Knifenut but he hasn't gotten back to me. I was wondering if anyone else wanted to chime in -

I was thinking of purchasing a Lansky Pro sharpening kit, but I figure since i can already freehand I may as well just refine my skills but get better equipment. As far as stones go, I think I'd like to stick with diamond as they'll last longer and are easier to maintain and use. I was thinking of going with 8" dia-sharp stones, but to get a full set would put me at around $400. Then I saw the 6x2 double-sided ones. Do you think Getting a fine/exta-fine and a coarse/extra-coarse, as well as the bench stand, would be a good start? This is only $100, which leaves me plenty of money for my Griptilian that I'm aching for. I'd like to get an extra-extra fine but it seems they only sell the 8" ones, and I don't wanna pay around $70 for one stone right now.
 
Shawn7656 said:
I sent this as a message to Knifenut but he hasn't gotten back to me. I was wondering if anyone else wanted to chime in -

I was thinking of purchasing a Lansky Pro sharpening kit, but I figure since i can already freehand I may as well just refine my skills but get better equipment. As far as stones go, I think I'd like to stick with diamond as they'll last longer and are easier to maintain and use. I was thinking of going with 8" dia-sharp stones, but to get a full set would put me at around $400. Then I saw the 6x2 double-sided ones. Do you think Getting a fine/exta-fine and a coarse/extra-coarse, as well as the bench stand, would be a good start? This is only $100, which leaves me plenty of money for my Griptilian that I'm aching for. I'd like to get an extra-extra fine but it seems they only sell the 8" ones, and I don't wanna pay around $70 for one stone right now.
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I have both of those. I see no reason why they wouldn't do you just fine, especially as a 'starter set' (excellent start). The bench stand is a good idea; it'll help keep the underside relatively clean, which is about the only drawback to double-sided hones, if used on a bench.
 
As my finest stone right now is a soft Arkansas, I think the extra-fine will make me pretty happy. Do you think I'll be craving something more fine than that, though? Would it be worth investing in a higher-grit stone as well, or would stropping paste of various micron sizes be a better route? If so, what grit would be the best 'step up' from the extra-fine DMT?
I'd like to be able to get the stone off of Knifeworks as that's where I plan on purchasing my Griptilian, but I'm not opposed to using another site.

I figure I'm starting a new job soon, and getting a nice tax return, so I'll have a bit of extra spending money. I don't want to go all out, however, as I'm really in dire need of upgrading my camera (to a Nikon D7000 :D) as mine is dying, and I'm an amateur photographer on the side.
 
Shawn7656 said:
As my finest stone right now is a soft Arkansas, I think the extra-fine will make me pretty happy. Do you think I'll be craving something more fine than that, though? Would it be worth investing in a higher-grit stone as well, or would stropping paste of various micron sizes be a better route? If so, what grit would be the best 'step up' from the extra-fine DMT?
I'd like to be able to get the stone off of Knifeworks as that's where I plan on purchasing my Griptilian, but I'm not opposed to using another site.

I figure I'm starting a new job soon, and getting a nice tax return, so I'll have a bit of extra spending money. I don't want to go all out, however, as I'm really in dire need of upgrading my camera (to a Nikon D7000 :D) as mine is dying, and I'm an amateur photographer on the side.
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The 6/3/1 micron Dia-Paste from DMT would follow that EF Dia-Sharp (at 9 microns) pretty seamlessly. And if you use that compound on various different surfaces, like hardwood, balsa and leather, you can make it all the more versatile. The compound will work more aggressively on firmer surfaces like hardwood, and less aggressively on softer surfaces like leather. Effectively, you can get 'coarser' or 'finer' performance from the very same compound, when used on different surfaces. Very fun to experiment with. :)
 
That's cool. I have a leather strop made by Illinois Razor Strop Co. I think it's cow leather, though it seems people in the knife world like kangaroo and I think sheep? Don't remember the other type. Does it make much difference?

I noticed DMT makes Diafolds with EEF (only a double-sided one) and a thing the same size as a diafold with a leather pouch instead of handles that's EEF as well, though I think to save some cash I'll just go with the paste for now

EDIT: Slightly unrelated, but I don't want to start a new thread -
Do you have any suggestions for something to put under a benchstone to keep it from slipping? I'm hoping just a household item for now. I found a pretty coarse 6x2 whetstone (cheap crap) and I'm using it to fix the bevel on my stonewashed knife, but it keeps slipping around :(
 
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The more exotic leather strops are likely best used bare (no compound). I think the most popular here, other than the usual veg-tanned cowhide, is horsehide leather. It's reputed to have very high silicate content (super-fine naturally-occurring abrasive particles), and is popular as a finishing strop, without compound.

Pretty much any ol' leather will work fine, when used with compound. I've been using some veg-tanned cowhide, bought at Tandy, for my home-made strop blocks (I use Dia-Paste on mine).

I have one of the EF/EEF Dia-Folds (green/tan), and it works very well. I use it with my DMT Aligner/Magna-Guide setup.
 
Shawn7656 said:
Do you have any suggestions for something to put under a benchstone to keep it from slipping? I'm hoping just a household item for now. I found a pretty coarse 6x2 whetstone (cheap crap) and I'm using it to fix the bevel on my stonewashed knife, but it keeps slipping around :(
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The rubber shelf/drawer-liner stuff works very well for such things. Can usually find it at the grocery store, Walmart, etc.
 
Well after looking around online it's a cowhide strop. Here's the model
http://www.purtlesupply.com/illinois-strop-127.html

Apparently this is a decent strop brand. I picked mine up, unused, at a garage sale for 50 cents :) I don't think cowhide counts as exotic, am I right? lol

And that's a good idea. I'll have to give it a try TexasPride

EDIT: Just saw your reply OWE. That sounds good too, especially because I'm working at my desk right now lol
 
Shawn7656 said:
Well after looking around online it's a cowhide strop. Here's the model
http://www.purtlesupply.com/illinois-strop-127.html

Apparently this is a decent strop brand. I picked mine up, unused, at a garage sale for 50 cents :) I don't think cowhide counts as exotic, am I right? lol
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Only if it came from one of those rare cows that makes chocolate milk. Otherwise, no. :D

That strop looks pretty nice. Not sure what leather type it is, but I think it should do just fine. EDIT: Never mind, I see you already identified the leather. Should do fine.
 
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Sounds good. As I know people normally take very good care of leather, is there anything I'm supposed to be putting on my strop to keep it in good condition? Like an oil or something?
 
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