A New Carver/Bushcraft blade for me

Brian Andrews · May 7, 2012

You would think, as a knifemaker, that I just had loads and loads of knives sitting around. Truth is, I only have a couple. I hate stuff sitting around, not getting used. So, if it sits too long, I find a new home for it. Also, it is an indirect way of me honing in on exactly what I like and dont like.

Anyway, the point of this is that my one or two knives that I usually grab are pretty plain and simple, and used well. Almost to the point that when I show them to someone it is almost borderline embarassing to say that I made it. It is like I make knives, and here is a fugly abused one

.

A combination of me wanting to make me a nicer one and incorporate a couple new things, I come up with another full tang, stick tang knife for me. The cool thing is that this one is for me. I am sure there are people who will not like the thickness, or the grind or the handle. I can already hear the cries of the the grind is too thin etc. But, I know exactly what I was going for here.

For years, even before I made knives, I was (and still am) a huge fan of keeping scandi bevels flat. Sharpening on waterstones, except when field sharpening was required. Depending on the steel, original grind angle, and intended use of the knife, I might put a one or two stroke micro bevel on.

I have seen some real hard core user knives that started off as flat scandis. Through the course of LOTS of use, and TONS of leather compound stropping, the bevels took on a very nice polish and just a hint of convexing. A touch of rounding on the top corner and a touch of rounding at the cutting edge. Through use, I have found that the touch of rounding will let me go thinner on my bevels than I normally would, and a touch of strength is brought back into the edge. At the same time, the bevel is still flat enough to get the wood carving control that I personally want.

This is a very, very tough balancing act. For me anyway, because I am ultra picky when I am going after something very specific like this. Tiny little things that I doubt most people would realize. People have been making a scandi-vex grind for quite a while. I dont quite consider this that style of grind, because to me that implies more vexing than I am going for here.

If anyone has ever used a Kellam, that is more what I am after, but in my own steel, own heat treat, and my own handle and build design. Others will probably argue that the Kellam grind is put on flat, but it is not. The last bit of the edge has been polished right into the bevel, giving very much the same effect I was going for here.

The way I did mine is to get the grind very close to complete on the coarse belts. The next finer grit, took it even closer. That is when I dumped the scandi jig, and went freehand. I started with a deformable belt (a trizac) and polished, and made sure I got a burr on both sides. In the free hand, I induce probably about a .5 degree tilt. Between that, and the deforming belt, I got what I wanted. I finished on a series of cork and felt (all deformable) to continue the very mild convex process and finish.

Before I even put time in the handle, I did quite a series of tests on the blade. Carving, batoning, making some simple items? Why did I bother doing all that? If the grind wasnt what I wanted..too convex, too thin, etc, I did not want to bother putting more effort and money into this particular one. But, it worked out great for me. So, I freehand polished the bevels one last time, and started the handle part.

Oh yeah..a couple details. The stock thickness is 1/8. It is O1. The initial bevels were put in at 9 degrees per side before all the hand work.

That is probably enough words, so now I will just post the pics.

This one will be a strop and use, strop and use knife and I am very happy with it so far. My new user.

It doesnt matter to me if you like it or hate itI would love to hear your inputs experiences with similar knives (ie Kellam, overly used scandi, whatever you got.). Everyones use dictactes the geometry and style and what works best for them. The past couple years in the woods for me have been leading me towards this, and even though I am very excited right now, I know enough to never declare I am done.

I am looking forward to using this one and to see where the next couple years lead me into.

TheGame · May 7, 2012

That handle looks awesome. I am not a fan of wood usually, but I really like that. I don't use many Scandis, since I prefer convex, but I don't think there is anything wrong with using the grinds that you believe would work best for you. Everyone is different in what they do with certain knives, so even if other people don't like it, who cares as long as you do.

Brian Sargent · May 7, 2012

My experience has been similar to yours regarding the single bevel.

I was polishing them as flat as possible but didn't have as tough of an edge as I wanted.

Mine are all slightly convexed now and still cut great but don't have the the rolling that happened a few times.

Brian Andrews · May 7, 2012

Don’t get me wrong. I have been using “flat” scandi’s for a long time, and will continue to do so. I have come up with a combination of angle, steel, temper, etc that more than meets my own durability requirements.

My reason for doing something “different” for this one come from two places. 1) Wanting to do the “strop maintence” on this one without all the worry of perfectly flat waterstone bevels. But just enough that I don’t mess up my carving control. 2) To thin the bevel to a level that is thinner than I would normally be comfortable with. Getting it thinner, sharper, and yet adding just a touch of durability back into it.

I realize I am in an extreme minority in the things I look for in a knife like this. But, as you gentleman have already said …….. “As long as it works for you”

And I can’t help but sharing. So, thank you for entertaining me and putting up with posts like this.

Now…..show me yours Brian

I would love to see it…..I am a big fan of the stuff you make.

B

Shotgun · May 7, 2012

I bet that thing cuts like a demon. Nice looking knife. I for one have never been too anal about keeping the bevels flat. Being able to use a strop makes sharpening easier and gives the edge a little more robustness. I feel those benefits out weigh the idea of having a "true scandi."

SuicideFO · May 7, 2012

Very nice Brian. I really like your work.

Rockywolf · May 7, 2012

I'll take it! Oops, wrong forum.

Seriously, I like scandis a lot, and yet recently have been using my convexed knives more...and trying to get better at sharpening them. (it's a struggle sometimes...a patience thing). That being said, I took out my Skookum and compared it to a recently used convex and it sailed through the paper like it was barely there. I find scandis to be easier to maintain than others, and the barrel handle you made is sure to be comfy in any grip.

Now that I've blathered on about nothing, I look forward to seeing this knife in further tests. And if you sell it, first dibs!

RW

Mannlicher · May 7, 2012

I love the handle. Reminds me of some of the work by my favorite Swedish maker. The mix of materials is tasteful, and functional.

I have one of your Bushcraft hybrids, flat grind rather than Scandi, and in A2 steel. Simply a wonderful blade, and I use it often. I'll admit to putting just a taste of convex on it though.

TedPalmer · May 7, 2012

really fine knife!
looks like an excellent wood worker for sure. The overall design is of course reminiscent of the Mora 1 and 2. They have been my standard for determining an excellent user for a long time.
Quite a few of my favorites over the years have been "scandivex".

score one for you Brian!!
be safe...

jcl-MD · May 8, 2012

Brian is the brass pommel made to be used or just looks? (HAMMER-Batton)

THANKS!

dantzk8 · May 9, 2012

Brian Andrews said:
For years, even before I made knives, I was (and still am) a huge fan of keeping scandi bevels flat. Sharpening on waterstones, except when field sharpening was required. Depending on the steel, original grind angle, and intended use of the knife, I might put a one or two stroke micro bevel on.

I have seen some real hard core user knives that started off as flat scandis. Through the course of LOTS of use, and TONS of leather compound stropping, the bevels took on a very nice polish and just a hint of convexing. A touch of rounding on the top corner and a touch of rounding at the cutting edge. Through use, I have found that the touch of rounding will let me go thinner on my bevels than I normally would, and a touch of strength is brought back into the edge. At the same time, the bevel is still flat enough to get the wood carving control that I personally want.

This is a very, very tough balancing act. For me anyway, because I am ultra picky when I am going after something very specific like this. Tiny little things that I doubt most people would realize. People have been making a scandi-vex grind for quite a while. I dont quite consider this that style of grind, because to me that implies more vexing than I am going for here.

I try to keep my bevels as flat as i can, but i know they are, whatever my efforts, convex. There are no straight lines, what we call flat is anyway, at a tiny scale, curved. There is just an acceptable level of curvature we call flatness. Stropping will increase the curve, a well executed sharpening will bring back the bevel at an acceptable level of flatness but whatever the sharpening technique the bevel will be in the best case almost flat. Example: what happens when you grind a blade with a belt sander? The belt slides on a plate which is supposed to be flat, let say it's flat, the belt will anyway react to the contact of the steel by some ripple. It may sound niggling but you can make this experience: grind a blade in the puukko style, large flat bevels, zero grind. Then make a long cut at the butt of a wood stick like when you want to shape a tip for a pole. Look at the result, compare the flatness of the cut to something we would all consider as flat: the edge of a measurement rule. The cut will be curved, eventually slightly or even very slightly but curved anyway. The wood has acted on the blade like water on the curved hull of a boat, the bow dips then rises to the surface.
If you make the same experience of whittling with a deliberatly convexed geometry you will get a more curved cut.

Brian, if i asked you to make me a knife i wouldn't ask for any "balance point" between flat and convex. I would say: "as flat as possible, it will be convexed enough for me."

You have made there a beautiful knife anyway.

dantzk.

Brian Andrews · May 9, 2012

dantzk8 said:
Example: what happens when you grind a blade with a belt sander? The belt slides on a plate which is supposed to be flat, let say it's flat, the belt will anyway react to the contact of the steel by some ripple. It may sound niggling but you can make this experience: grind a blade in the puukko style, large flat bevels, zero grind. Then make a long cut at the butt of a wood stick like when you want to shape a tip for a pole. Look at the result, compare the flatness of the cut to something we would all consider as flat: the edge of a measurement rule.

This sounds like a post I would make, and I am always trying to explain that to people

Sometimes with posts like this, I assume people already know whats in my head. You can read minds, can’t you?

Because of that, I will provide a little more background.

I have been a huge fan of “flat” bevels for years. Because of the physics invovled in making a blade that you described, I always took my scandi’s to a lapped, coarse waterstone. Instead of using a flatness guage as you mentioned, I figured once the stone was lapped, I can’t get much more precise than that. Then, I could tell flatness by being able to produce an even scratch pattern ALL the way across the bevel. Then, I take it through the series of grits until I am done. All sharpenings later are just at the higher grit levels and I never have to spend a lot of time on them.

So……been there, huge fan of that. Now, that is where this knife comes in.

I have done a lot of experiementing with different grind angles and keeping them flat, and what they can do. I know where my limit for comfort is for my own knives, and I also have to be aware of what customers are going to do with theirs. But, this one is for me, so I don’t have to worry about others for a moment.

I took this one just a hair beyond my comfort level. Then by introducing and VERY, VERY slight amount of curve, bringing some additional durability back in. If you look at it, you would sweat it was flat, and would need a method like you described to determine otherwise.
The line I am trying to flirt with here is a slight loss in flatness, of which the acceptable level will be how much I notice it through use in which flatness matters to me, balanced with a touch of added durability so that I can take the bevels thinner than I normally wood. I have been using this knife every day, and so far, I am very happy with it. The cutting ability is way up there.

Point being….I hear what you saying and I agree with you, and have done it for a long time. At the same time, I don’t want to keep doing the same thing over and over again even if I fail in the new things I am trying. It is the experimenting that keeps me excited and who knows? Perhaps I will find something that is better than what I thought was the best. Wouldn’t be the first time it happened

jcl-MD said:
Brian is the brass pommel made to be used or just looks? (HAMMER-Batton)

THANKS!

You can use the pommel. I machined it from a solid piece of brass hex stock. It is drilled and tapped and threaded to the full tang. The handle pieces are fit very well, and finished off with West Systems epoxy. I am beyond happy with the build up style.

I realize brass is not the hardest of metals, and I can do the same procedure with stainless and other steels. But, this is what I wanted. I have some knives like this, where the butt is wood, and I still will hit them with a stick.

Personall, I don’t beat the piss out of the butt, but I do pound on the butt with a stick to drive the knife into a log for “no hand” or repetitive operations. If I do it with wood, I would gladly do it with brass. It is plenty thick enough, and if it got enough scratches that it bothered me it could easily be re-sanded and re-buffed. But, me personally, I like the signs of use. A prisitine knife is one that doesn’t get used enough

mewolf1 · May 9, 2012

That is one fine working knife, as far as the grind, it's my opinion that "If it makes wood, it's good"

dantzk8 · May 9, 2012

Brian,

I hear you, my point wasn't a negative criticism, it was even the opposite but i don't have been clear enough. As you say: "This is a very, very tough balancing act.". As a maker, you can put on the steel the subtility of design you feel, for yourself, the need to put. But for a user those subtilities are hard to define and to explain. When you find a maker who provides a product with specifications close to the ones you expect you can say you are lucky. Fortunately it has been my case. Convexing is such a trend nowadays that I would be reluctant to ask for "a bit of convexing". I would fear to end up with a sharpened spoon. I don't learn you anything there, the specialised tool a knife this grind requires (despite its apparent simplicity) a lot of precision in the design to don't miss the target, wood carving. That's why i prefer "flat bevels" at the expected angle and thickness and make, eventually, the last part of the job myself.

There's something about this grind, from the name to give it to the completion to set (or not) to the very edge, without even speaking of it's intended purpose, which is strange. I don't know any other grind which carries such an orthodoxy and in the same time such a misunderstanding.

But well, 1/8", 9 degrees and O1... That's all right for me!

dantzk.

Brian Andrews · May 9, 2012

dantzk8 said:
Brian,

I hear you, my point wasn't a negative criticism, it was even the opposite but i don't have been clear enough. As you say: "This is a very, very tough balancing act.". As a maker, you can put on the steel the subtility of design you feel, for yourself, the need to put. But for a user those subtilities are hard to define and to explain. When you find a maker who provides a product with specifications close to the ones you expect you can say you are lucky. Fortunately it has been my case. Convexing is such a trend nowadays that I would be reluctant to ask for "a bit of convexing". I would fear to end up with a sharpened spoon. I don't learn you anything there, the specialised tool a knife this grind requires (despite its apparent simplicity) a lot of precision in the design to don't miss the target, wood carving. That's why i prefer "flat bevels" at the expected angle and thickness and make, eventually, the last part of the job myself.

There's something about this grind, from the name to give it to the completion to set (or not) to the very edge, without even speaking of it's intended purpose, which is strange. I don't know any other grind which carries such an orthodoxy and in the same time such a misunderstanding.

But well, 1/8", 9 degrees and O1... That's all right for me!

dantzk.

Good stuff there man :thumbup:

I didn't take any of your comments as negative, so sorry about that. I just took it as "perhaps there is some additional background I could provide which led me this way." And, I decided to add that as a way of continuing conversation of some very sharp people.

If I come off as a "pusher" of something. I don't mean to. I realize that what I have posted here would probably be interesting to about 1/2% of knife users, and I would never recommend it anyone

But, it is something that excites me enough to post about it

Thank you for the awesome feedback sir.

B

dantzk8 · May 9, 2012

Brian,

It's a pleasure for me. Thanks for those kind words.

dantzk.

pitdog · May 9, 2012

As that style of knife go I'd say you nailed it Brian, your attention to detail always amazes me !

I'm pretty sure that my carving skills don't require such perfection though as trap triggers and such like can be done with more or less any knife as long as it's sharp.
My biggest reservation with this style of knife ( and I also use one but with a convexed blade )is the fear of my hand sliding off the uncontoured handle and down onto the blade. This fear may be unfounded but it's one I personally struggle to shake off.

tknife · May 9, 2012

Really beautiful and functional work, though having owned a couple of your knives, I wouldn't expect any less :thumbup: I like the classic look and style of it. Like something that would have been on a woodsmans belt 200 years ago, but with the lasting functionality of modern materials and craftsmanship.

kamagong · May 9, 2012

Good on you for making a knife for yourself. You deserve it.

Which Kellam are you talking about? They have several lines, from the very expensive Kainuun Tommis to Rosellis to the budget oriented Martinni knives. Hard to understand what you are talking about without knowing the specific knife.

I am embarking on a similar experiment. I have a few puukkos now, and I want to see the effect of slightly different geometries. Most of them will be kept flat as received from the maker. However, there is one that I sharpen with leather backed sandpaper, resulting in a slight convex. I don't have much experience with it yet, but early impressions are favorable. Then again, I'm probably not skilled enough a user to notice any difference.

jcl-MD · May 9, 2012

Brian Andrews said:
This sounds like a post I would make, and I am always trying to explain that to people
Sometimes with posts like this, I assume people already know whats in my head. You can read minds, can’t you? Because of that, I will provide a little more background.

I have been a huge fan of “flat” bevels for years. Because of the physics invovled in making a blade that you described, I always took my scandi’s to a lapped, coarse waterstone. Instead of using a flatness guage as you mentioned, I figured once the stone was lapped, I can’t get much more precise than that. Then, I could tell flatness by being able to produce an even scratch pattern ALL the way across the bevel. Then, I take it through the series of grits until I am done. All sharpenings later are just at the higher grit levels and I never have to spend a lot of time on them.

So……been there, huge fan of that. Now, that is where this knife comes in.

I have done a lot of experiementing with different grind angles and keeping them flat, and what they can do. I know where my limit for comfort is for my own knives, and I also have to be aware of what customers are going to do with theirs. But, this one is for me, so I don’t have to worry about others for a moment.

I took this one just a hair beyond my comfort level. Then by introducing and VERY, VERY slight amount of curve, bringing some additional durability back in. If you look at it, you would sweat it was flat, and would need a method like you described to determine otherwise.
The line I am trying to flirt with here is a slight loss in flatness, of which the acceptable level will be how much I notice it through use in which flatness matters to me, balanced with a touch of added durability so that I can take the bevels thinner than I normally wood. I have been using this knife every day, and so far, I am very happy with it. The cutting ability is way up there.

Point being….I hear what you saying and I agree with you, and have done it for a long time. At the same time, I don’t want to keep doing the same thing over and over again even if I fail in the new things I am trying. It is the experimenting that keeps me excited and who knows? Perhaps I will find something that is better than what I thought was the best. Wouldn’t be the first time it happened

You can use the pommel. I machined it from a solid piece of brass hex stock. It is drilled and tapped and threaded to the full tang. The handle pieces are fit very well, and finished off with West Systems epoxy. I am beyond happy with the build up style.

I realize brass is not the hardest of metals, and I can do the same procedure with stainless and other steels. But, this is what I wanted. I have some knives like this, where the butt is wood, and I still will hit them with a stick.

Personall, I don’t beat the piss out of the butt, but I do pound on the butt with a stick to drive the knife into a log for “no hand” or repetitive operations. If I do it with wood, I would gladly do it with brass. It is plenty thick enough, and if it got enough scratches that it bothered me it could easily be re-sanded and re-buffed. But, me personally, I like the signs of use. A prisitine knife is one that doesn’t get used enough

It's cool that you set it up so that you can use the pommel if you need to!

Thanks!