A new knife maker with a lot of random questions about knives, steel, and mettalurgy

R

running bird

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Sep 29, 2015
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Hi, I'm relatively new to knife making but i have been looking into it for the past 2 years (I've have made a cupple knives, maybe 3 or 4, but they are kinda ... meh) and have been blacksmithing for the past 2 years so I have a general knowledge of metals and how stuff works. When i first started out i saved up snow shoveling money an (I was only 14 and am now 16, not that, that matters at all) I bought myself anvil, it's a Peter Wright, 135lb, made some time between 1890 and 1901 (i think) cost me about $200, From what i have heard from some blacksmiths i have met that was a win for me!! The next step was to build a forge, the process wasn't that long but I'm a little lazy so i'll explain it quick, old stainless steel dubble sink+ refractory cement+ fire bricks+ wood+ shop-vac= backyard forge. it works great and has no problem problem reaching 1,500F or more, it was a fun afternoon with my dad making it. My dad dose wood working the old fashion way (no power tools) so he promised he would make me a anvil stand out of a big piece of ash ("it's almost done"- dad ... yesterday, but i see where i get my laziness from). For now my anvil sits on a fungus covered log when i work and when not in use it sits in the middle of the garage,I'm always hitting my shins on it which isn't good considering I'm a cross country runner so i kinda need my shins. I have made everything from hearts out of horse shoes (for the lady friend) to knives, to pots and pans.
that's it for the crazy long intro.

Now one of my questions for today is about something i have little to no knowledge of working with and that's copper. I want to attempt to do something very stupid (as young people like me tend to do). A while back my dad gave me a big sheet of copper (and i refuse to sell it as scrap, I find a use for everything) its about 9in long 7in wide and 1/2in thick, so its quite the hunk of copper. I want to attempt to make a copper knife, i know how to work with steel and how the process goes with many different steels but i know nothing about working with copper. my first thought was to make my own alloy, maybe add some carbon (that's what i would do to pure iron so makes sense to me) and add some chromium ( i know that will increase the toughness) and make my alloy the way the Japanese make tamahagane by folding and adding my elements. will this work to make the copper more usable? dose anyone know how to temper copper? what would it work better as a sword or a knife ( i know how to make a sword but i have never done it so i should probably practice that first)?

And my next question is a more important one. I am 16 and in my junior year of high school so i need to start looking into collage. I am stuck between Law enforcement and some kind of metallurgy career. i am familiar with both and have many family members and friends who are in both careers but need a 3rd party opinion. I am leaning twords metallurgy but like every other person my age i am very indecisive. dose anyone have collage recommendations? i live in NJ and would prefer to go somewhere on the east coast but I am willing to compromise with other locations ( my brother goes to eastern Michigan for teaching and special education, Michigan is just about the farthest west i am willing to go). north or south dose not matter to me. I should probably add that I am not some one who can focus in a big lecture hall. sorry if i seem picky but I'm just letting you know what kind of person i am to get better recommendations from the community.

That just about sums it up for me the only other thing i could possible think of is in your opinion what is a bush craft knife steel 1095 or 5160? just a fun question, i wanna see what other people think.

sorry you had to read my novel of a bunch of questions but this means a lot to me that people take the time to help me and answer my questions.

thanks again in advance!,
Kevin
 
Ok, so a copper knife is an awesome idea if you ask me... Copper is very soft and you won't get much edge holding ability with it, it doesn't "heat treat" the same way steels do. It's almost the exact opposite. If you heat it up and let it cool down slowly, it gets hard (kinda), if you beat on it, it gets hard (kinda: called work hardening). To anneal it (make it soft) you heat it up and quench it in water.
To make an alloy with it, you don't fold in other stuff, you melt it and add the ingredients to the mix. This is how bronze is made, add about 12 percent tin, and some other stuff depending on the recipe, and there ya go.
If you fold it like tamahagane, you end up with... Tamahagane! Adding carbon wouldn't make copper harden either way.

Start small with your copper endeavor. Go with a knife. Look on Google for examples of historical copper knives, they'll give you an idea of how to proceed.

If you go with the "metallurgical" path, I suggest you find a foundry job or something like it. Ask any of the blacksmiths or bladesmiths around and they'll tell you is a hard and not very lucrative path to take.

As far as law enforcement goes, I can only use my own experience as an example... I'm a law enforcement ranger for the National Park Service. Government jobs are incredibly competitive, to get a job you have to be uber qualified. I'm a Vetran (that gives me a big leg up in some circumstances when applying for a job), a wildland firefighter, and an EMT. Those last three make me barely qualified.
I'm not trying to discourage you, but just know that it's VERY competitive out there and you need to have every qualification you can think of if you plan on trying to get a job with the feds!

As far as the bushcraft knife goes, I really don't know. For the home/amateur maker like me proper heat treat of either is out of my reach without sending it out to a pro. I'm sticking with 1080/84 until I can up my game a bit!
 
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thanks for the quick response!
as the copper goes i used some of my knowledge fro chem class today to figure out that copper melts at just under 2,000F so making bronze doesn't seem to bad i can maybe give it a tr, but just trying it as it is sounds like a good idea to me. I'll start looking into copper knives and the heat treating process

which would make a better knife copper or bronze?
 
Read the stickies at the top of the shoptalk page. Copper is not suitable to make a knife. Make a stock removal knife out of steel first.
 
I am very aware that steel it more suitable for knives. The idea of a copper knife just seemed interesting and I thought it would be nice to try and make the best copper (or bronze) knife I can. I have made some knives out of what I would concider "meh" steels just to get used to the process and I'm currently working on a more high quality steel a friend gave me (white steel #1, ya quite the jump from 1045, or RR spikes and files). I just had the copper laying around and was wondering how far I could take it.
 
You could use copper for bolsters, a guard, or even knife scales. A sheet that size could be very useful for a number of things. Pouring your own bronze ingot is quite advanced and can be dangerous if you don't have the right equipment or experience. I'm not trying to be a naysayer, just being realistic.
 
Then I'll just cut out a section of the copper and use the whole thing for several different projects, I did look up a few other things I can make with the copper besides the knife. I was thinking since I'm making the copper knife mostly for the look I could maybe "reverse the rolls" and have a steel hilt for the knife and steel fittings for the handle ware thouse parts would usually be copper or brass on a normal knife. If anyone has other design ideas let me know.
 
I like the idea of a copper knife and someone made one or one out of bronze and posted it somewhere on the internet. We did go through the copper age after all ;) That said Shane does have a point on guards and such, I really like copper but big thick pieces suitable for handle work can get pricey. I would recommend saving some for handle embellishments and a piece for your knife. Working copper is different than steel and if memory serves me you need to anneal it constantly as it work hardens.

Get good at forging with steel then try the copper after you've read up on it a bit.

On college if I could go back in time 20 or so years I would try to get an MBA or get into DNA computing, nano technology or something that pays and has entrepreneurial potential. A really good job can buy a nice shop and lots of knifemaking tools. Just my opinion of course. You're young and have time, think it through, it goes by quick.

-Clint
 
I'm with the others, save the copper for embellishments. As far as a career, I would suggest the law enforcement path. Get your degree in criminology, you will have way more opportunity than you will in the industrial engineering field. There is a lot of competition with the materials engineering jobs as many are gone or headed overseas. Besides, that's really boring stuff compared to L.E.
 
There is no "heat treating" for copper. You can only anneal it. It doesn't matter if you quench it or air cool it- all it will do is get softer.
The only way to harden it is by work-hardening. You need to look up the terms.
As you have been told several times, copper will not make a good (or even hardly serviceable) knife. A knife made of mild steel from a hardware store would be better.
 
I forge copper and make dishes and other stuff as well as knives. You could make a decent letter opener but the geometry would be closer to .100" thick for a good opener.
Bill has the process described well. Heat it up past 900 degrees and cool to anneal and make it soft. The only way to make it hard is work hardening. As you hammer/forge it the copper gets harder to move. If you are forging it you might have to hear it up and anneal it several times.

Thick 1/2" copper in that size is worth a lot more to you as material for guards and other things.

There is a bunch of EDC groups that buy and sell copper pry bars and in states where legal copper knucks.
 
Sounds like you have familiarized yourself with steel alloys but need to study up on non-ferous metallurgy. If making historical or art pieces, copper and bronze might be neat, but as far as function is concerned we have progressed way beyond the bronze age. As was said, the copper alloys don't harden (heat treat) as steel does, so are not suitable for blades. The copper you have will be very valuable for a host of other things, bolsters and such.

I recommend following a different path than LE. Knowing how to design or develop or fabricate or manufacture things will always be a valuable skill or service. LE may be a nescessity in (some) societies, but it isn't exactly a desired service.

Michigan is nice, but I bet if you come to the west you'll like it!

1095 or 5160 is a toss up if you ask me. Maybe 1095 for smaller blades and 5160 for large blades. I'd recommend 1084 (get it from Aldo) Could consider 52100, W2, A2, or O1 but prob better to wait until the next few blades. Most files are W1, similar to 1095.

Cheers!
 
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Ok so I guess my copper "knife" is gunna be more of a letter opener, so I'll just cut out a small section of the copper and make a small letter opener just so I can say I tried.

As for collage. I'm still torn between the 2 and I guess only time will tell

DanH45 you mentioned also, I love 30min from his shop and have been saving up some money for steels. Luckily cuz I live so close he said I can come pick up a steel when I order it so I don't have to ship it!
 
Ooops! Sooo I said that you could make tamahagane out of copper... Yeah, that's just flat wrong! I was getting my Japanese terms mixed up! I was thinking of Mokume Gane, which is made from non-ferrous metals. Sorry!

And DanH is right, being an LE is certainly not popular these days...
 
OP, don't let what some folks think about law enforcement set you back. LE entails much more than just those that patrol the streets of Podunk. Check out a career in the U.S. Coast Guard, Treasury Department, FBI. All very rewarding pursuits. Attend the Coast Guard Academy (Free Education) put in 20 years and retire at 38 with a pension, then set up a knife shop as a second career. Beats the hell out of graduating with a degree that you can't use to get a job and then spending many years paying off your student loans.
 
Nc biker, that is my plan if I choose law enforcement,(except Idk if I would want to do coast gard), I guess I'm just trying to see if I would enjoy a metallurgic career.
Thanks for the encouragement though, some times people say things and it kinda draws me away from law enforcement but I know deep down it's something I will love, plus it's a big part of my family
 
I didn't mean to be discouraging. If you have aspiration beyond the simple LE officer as NC biker described (federal detective, elected official - sheriff, etc) that is great!

My point was less about the current popularity of LE, and more about the fact that reversing entropy on the small scale - contributing in some way to taking raw materials and producing something useful will always be a more valuable skill than most services.

Make sure to have your education linked into your long term goals as much as possible. example: Criminology degree would be a good intro before going to law school.

If you don't like the coast guard, but are interested in the thought, look into Airforce (or AF reserve) special police.

You could even conceivably combine your two career notions and look into a career in something like patent law or criminal investigations specializing in metallurgy. Might be a long road though. Specialties can be difficult.
 
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