A prophet in his own land........long read and it won't make any difference anyway.

Bill Martino

Bill Martino

Joined
Mar 5, 1999
Messages
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The recent killing of Police Chief Shrestha and the continued inablility of anybody to end the Maoist insurgency in Nepal inspire me to set forth the following.

Almost 20 years ago when the Maoists were about as entrenched in Nepal as Fidel Castro and his chicken thieves were 50 years ago when I was in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba I saw the writing on the wall.

Across the street from the US Embassy in Kathmandu markets were openly selling USDA foodstuffs clealy marked: "Gift from the United States of America. Not to be sold." Common practice all over Nepal.

Programs we funded never came to fruition because they were looted by government crooks.

The most effective program we had in Nepal was the Peace Corps and they were a stepchild operation and viewed by almost everybody in Washington as such. I once saw a girl trying to get $300 from Washington to set up a small library in the school to which she was posted wait on hold for 30 minutes (almost $100 buck phone bill at that time) to speak with a Washington Peace Corps rep regarding the matter. She never did get the money so took it out of her own bank account back home to get the job done. The "elite" at the American Compound (whom I despised) tried to bar Peace Corps volunteers from the Compound because "they are dirty and full of lice."

By contrast, I watched the Chinese build a bridge across a difficult gorge and river. The Chinese refused to turn the project over to the Nepalese Government. "Either we run the project or nobody does." The Nepalese Government folded. The Chinese managed all the funds, labor, materials, everything. Part of the deal was every Nepali worker on the project would have a Chinese partner (who was a skilled and dedicated Maoist recruiter with money, the little red book and other enticements). Result: The bridge got built in good time, reasonable cost, and the Chinese recruited 500+ Nepalis into the philosophy of Mao.

The bridge saved 4 to 6 hours of trekking down one side of the ravine, across a rickety rope bridge, and up the other side. On each side of the bridge was a large brass plaque which read: This bridge is a gift from your Chinese Friends and Neighbors.

I pointed out the obvious to the US Embassy and was told they had no power to control the activities of the government of Nepal or its people.

I pointed out the obvious to Senators and Representatives in Washington. I received polite letters thanking me for my concern and was assured that the "matter will be investigated."

So here we are and here we will be until we learn that money and bullets alone will not win the hearts and minds of people.
 
You hike off the beaten tracks, off away from the wonder sites of an area like Joshua Tree or Yosemite, and there are quiet places that have it all. They aren't so much to look at compared to El Capitan or the Wall of Rocks, but they have a share of animals and plants, whose lives are carried out under our noses and without our approval or disapproval. I love these places. The little places. A friend painted such a spot after I told her about them and what they meant.

Your story is sad. Nepal was a 'little place' and few gave a damn what happened there. The people could be crushed and it would mean a small addition to the list of peoples forgoten and crushed in our world. But their lives have meaning regardless if we heard the story, and others were listening. The Chinese. And in a vacumn of disinterest, it doesn't take much effort to gather great results. A few more lice ridden Peace Corps could have gained much.

munk
 
it is a brave Uncle Bill who does his part to help who he can, when he can, where he can. All Uncle needs now is the orange/yellow robe of the Buddhist monk!

Keith
 
All Uncle needs now is the orange/yellow robe of the Buddhist monk!


I'm a far cry from that position. Lama Jigme gives me an A in philosophy and dharma but rates me F in ritural, history and methodology. I'd never make it.
 
It seems that all too often we (the big corporate beaureacracy) ignores these little things until it's too late! We do it all the time with no regard for the people who are hurt by our turning up our noses and walking away! Guarantee that most of these corporate biggies or polititians would curse the paint off the walls if they had to be put off like that.
 
Before their liberation by China, the people of Tibet had been held in ignorance and poverty for thousands of years by the ruling monastic theocracy.

In little more than a quarter of a century, they have made a huge leap into the modern world. The improvement in the individual standard of living and the country’s infrastructure is amazing.

Just because a political system may be counter to our own perceptions of what’s right for us doesn’t mean that it is not the best system for some other culture.

The Communists may be just what Nepal needs at this time in it’s history.
 
WTFO?

Yeah, the Chinese are doing such a good job for them that pretty soon, the Tibetan people aren't even going to ****ing _exist_ anymore...

Maybe you were being sarcastic?:confused:

-Dave
 
Ben Arown-Awile

Your post really upsets me, right to the core. :mad:

I won't ruin this forum by saying what I would like to say.

Using your reasoning::::

To kill prominent leaders, destroy any symbols of culture, terrorize the common people, enforce the communist rule upon other, by forces as the communists/maoists feel is GOOD for the people.

Using your reasoning::::: Our society which we love most for its freedom , ability to do mostly what we please, travel here and there, work to achieve our desires and get ahead, MIGHT be better off under a Communist system.

Would you care to point me to an area of information, other than communist progaganda that SHOWS the improvement of Tibet since the forced takeover?

I'll shut up before I really do ruin this forum, I care about so much.
 
Originally posted by Ben Arown-Awile
The Communists may be just what Nepal needs at this time in it’s history.
Click to expand...

What a Forking Dumb Ass Idea!!!!!!!!

Dayum, there's always gotta be one in every crowd I suppose. Wonder if he would say that face to face to us veterans here?:rolleyes:
 
Neat thing about a free society, don't have to say nothing if you don't want to.

I ain't saying nothing.
 
The point is moot because, so far as I can see, the Maoists in Nepal aren't 'really' Maoist revolutionaries anyway, for the more part, but just dacoits
 
da·coit also da·koit (də-koit') .
n.
A member of a robber band or gang in India or Myanmar (Burma
 
It's the means more than the end that I object to. I don't like terrorist tactics regardless of the politics. If Nepal had a truly free election and elected a Maoist government it's their country so God bless'em -- although that might be impossible if God is outlawed.
 
Bill has described in this post and others, government corruption and poor living conditions in Nepal. Those things were certainly there when I visited in the 70's. He also described an effective bridge building effort by the Chinese, who have a communist government. If you have ever hiked between villages in Nepal you will have an idea of what this could mean to the local inhabitants.

I suggest that Mr. Ben Arown-Awile's thoughts bear careful consideration and discussion. I am not ready to endorse them, but I will think about them.

Modern China is embracing capitalist economic principals, while retaining the communist name. The Chinese government has also distanced itself fromt the terrorist activities of those calling themselves Maoists in Nepal. It may be that opportunistic thugs are riding on the coattails of a successful asian political system.

I suggest dogmatic assertions will not increase our understanding or leave us in a better position.

Some questions to consider. I don't know the answers.

1- If the people in a country find their current political system insufferable, and chose a controled economy instead, is that OK? Note that they may only choose between available alternatives, and Bill makes the point that we have not made our alternative very available.

2- What are the tradeoffs between standard of living and traditional culture. Without any statistics, I am willing to bet that infant mortality has gone down in Tibet. However, much of the traditional religious culture has been lost or migrated to Nepal or India. Ethnic identities are being lost as other ethnic groups migrate into the area and mix with the local population. Balanced against this, young Tibetans have opportunities for travel, education, etc., that they never would have had in their traditional culture. There are many parallels with the American Indian.

3. How much brutality, genocide, etc., is acceptable in establishing a higher standard of living. Consider that your standard of living is not higher if you are beheaded or maimed by "revolutionaries."
 
Ben Arown-Awile does make a good point if are willing to concede that like Christianity, Communism has not been tried and found wanting but rather found to be difficult and not tried.

For some reason this reminds me of the story of a church in which a "Sister Bertha Better Than You" type had most of the church buffalo'd until a new guy moved and joined the congregation.

His pickup was spotted in front of the local bar one afternoon, and the next Sunday, the church's self-appointed arbiter of virtuous conduct read the new guy the riot act about how his truck being parked in front of the bar all afternoon made it look to the whole town like he was an alcoholic.

The guy didn't say a word, just got into his pickup and drove over to Sister Bertha's place, parked it right in front, and walked off, leaving it there all afternoon, that night, and the next morning.
..........................................

The politicians of today's democracy on state and federal levels are, with rare exception so crooked that if you fed them a nail, they'd ( excrete ) a screw.

So the communist leaders are a bunch of thugs and don't give a dam_ about the people except what they can get out of them by forcing them into slavery for their benefit. Except for brief moments of time it's always been that way.

The exception in Tibet is the removal of Tibetans from there to relocations where they either remain a minority or become assimilated. Likewise, "good" chinese are moved into Tibet. By 2009 do you really expect more than 10% of those living in Tibet to have been born and raised there in any kind of the old culture?

So - doesn't look like much difference to you, eh? The Maoists could probably take over the sheeple of the state of Kalifornika without problems. But they'd find out that as soon as they tried their usual tactics on us most of the folks in the US would kill them given the opportunity. And then be sure they created an opportunity.

Rant over.
 
In college my major was history Still enjoy it but you made the most dumb ass statement I have seen in awhile! You mean distroying a people ,it's culture is ok!Suggest you study China & it's history! YOU,don't have a clue!Talked to a older Chinese gentleman,awhile back! He gave me a history lession! He stated you westerners are so stupid! I was raised in Com.China,served in the Army,escaped!You cannot trust China,they want to destroy ANYTHING that opposes them in anyway! Time means NOTHING,they will distroy people countries,whatever,then apologise do whatever,then do it again & again! I think he knows a little more about China,than you,I think Tibet,would also disagree with you.Now you will prob. say, Maoists are killing for the good!I repeat,what a dumbass comment!
jim
 
RE Tibet...

I suspect that there is a kernel of validity to both sides of this question. Unfortunately, the inhabitants had little choice what changes occured or their rate. Resistance often meant death. That's wrong whether changes arise due to sudden out-side imposition of Maoism, Communism, Democratization, Globalization, Free Market Forces, whatever.

In this case, many current inhabitants of Tibet are probably better off than they would have been otherwise. But how many of them are Tibetians?
And what of Tibetians that no longer live in Tibet? Is the current situation worth the price paid by Tibetians that were displaced/killed?

What if it was decided to forcibly "improve the standard of living and provide otherwise inaccessable opportunities to the youth" of a group of people living without the obvious benefit of electricity or internal combustion engines?? Who could be said to be living under a theocracy? And in this very country??

That's right, the Amish. Surely, if they were "modernized" and adopted "productivity and consumption" patterns like those of the median American, everyone would benefit? Well, THEY don't seem to think THEY would benefit.

When acceptance of an "opportunity" is forced, it is not an opportunity, it is simple coercion.

Howard's post is a fine one--

Should the "West" endeavor to forcibly limit the choice to "Our way or no way"?
 
To wish Communism on any people is blasphemy, IMHO. In Vietnam I met a man named Captain Kim. He was a ROK Marine (Republic of Korea Marine), 8th degree black belt and the toughest man I've ever known. He told me that as a child he crawled on his belly to hide from the North Korean communists when they burned his village and killed his family after raping and torturing his mother and sisters. He said a soldier has only one purpose in life...to fight communism. Tell him that communism is OK and may God help you.

Semp --
 
Any body that thinks the chinese government is out to help Tibet or Nepal are just full of $hit.

Tibet has more Chinese in it than tibets and Nepal will be the same if the Chinese ever get their way about it. They need room to spread out their farmers so they can feed Chinese. This isn't all I wanted to say but, there seems to be a faction present here that, I feel, there is no need to discuss Nepal's problems any further. Some minds are already made up that communism is the best way. Looks like the US will head for hell in a hand basket too. :mad:
 
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