A proposal for an American gyuto.

That clears things up a bit. So, really, the question being evaluated is "Can an American knife maker recreate a Japanese chef's knife in the Gyuto style?" I assume the answer would be "yes" and the parameters are clear. It's kind of like following a recipe, in a way. But I guess we'll find out!
 
Chiro75 said:
If I said "The Military is the ultimate folding knife and no other company can create a folding knife as good..." and that's my mindset going into it, how likely will it be that Benchmade sends me a knife and I all of a sudden think it's better than the Military?
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That is irrelevant to how Fred will react to if Cook sends him a knife which outperforms the Japanese ones. Lots of people are biased and will misrepresent products, however lots of people will not.

As for his perspective, he has the opinon he does because of his experience with typical western vs Japanese kitchen knives, which is exactly what you would expect given typical western knives which have different points of balance and blade curvatures and edge geometry.

It is simply amazing that you would even suggest that Fred would not be frank about the performance of the knife given his past history on the internet. He has been posting about knives for longer than Bladeforums existed. He was active on rec.knives for a long time and his reputation in that regard is without blemish.

Not to mention that most of the qualities Fred has described are not subjective, you can balance the blade and show the center of mass trivially. So all Cook has to do is take a picture showing the knives balanced, and side on to show the same edge curvature.

Fred never even argued issues of steel quality, cutting ability or edge retention could readily be matched he states in fact in the first thread the western steels are of similar high ability and that getting the edge geometry (angle/thickness) isn't a problem, so the cutting ability isn't in contention.

-Cliff
 
I certainly appreciate Fred's challenge.

The only problem I see is IF, some makers knife doesn't match expectations or requirements, then it would be very easy to say "Well, instead of abc maker, you should have used XYZ maker, I KNOW thier knife would be right".

In other words while some maker may be able to meet this challenge, and prove his original statement wrong. It would be impossible to prove his statement right, because there's no way he can commisions and test every single american makers knife.
 
Speaking for myself only, I totally believe that just about any full time American knifemaker could make a blade of equal performance to a Japanese made gyuto.

I imagine that the issue Knife Outlet has with American made (or non Japanese made maybe) kitchen knives is that they don't have all the features like superb balance that he looks for in a kitchen knife and that the Japanese are known to obsess over. I didn't read the original thread where Cliff Stamp challeneged Knife Outlet to have a knife made but I suspect that KO has great faith that a good American knifemaker can, with KO's design input, make a blade to match the finest Japanese produced gyotos made today.
 
It is simply amazing that you would even suggest that Fred would not be frank about the performance of the knife
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Cliff, I didn't say that KnifeOutlet WOULDN'T fairly represent the knives. The original comment was "I wonder why more makers haven't offered to do this..." and my response was that when the test is set forth with bias built in one has to be a little wary, and not because KnifeOutlet is an evil person, but because sometimes someone has something that is their favorite for no real reason. They just like it. So, in some cases, you could make the "perfect" knife, but if one little detail is off or there is just something that doesn't click with the evaluator, you "lose" and maybe for no particularly good reason. Evaluating and comparing knives in this way is almost totally subjective, so even if the knife meets the given criteria it still may not pass muster. If the question, however, is can an American maker produce a knife of XYZ shape with R hardness and L balance point, then I'm fully confident it can be done. Even following those parameters, though, doesn't mean KnifeOutlet will like the knife more than a Japanese version.
 
roughedges said:
I suspect that KO has great faith that a good American knifemaker can, with KO's design input, make a blade to match the finest Japanese produced gyotos made today.
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Here is a short summary of the thread :

Fred - "Japanese kitchen knives are really superior to western ones."

Me - "Fred, some of the attributes you list would not be superior to everyone."

Fred - "For what I want the Japanese knives I have see are far superior to the many western ones I have used both custom and production."

Me - "Well there are a lot of crappy western knives, any decent western knifemaker should easily be able to match or exceed the performance. Just ask a decent custom makers to make exactly what you want."

Fred - "Ok. Sounds like a plan."

Not really a challenge, just a guy wanting a knife with specific performance.

-Cliff
 
Congrats! I've got a feeling you'll be spot on again with another customer's request... Just make sure you bring it to the NWKC show this fall?!?! Or at least one like it, as I'd really like to see what you guys come up with!

Good luck! :cool:
 
Cliff, thanks for the support. I should clear up a couple of things. In the first place, I didn't ask Matt or anybody else to copy anything. I just laid out some performance parameters - things like weight, balance, chopping ergonomics. I haven't said I want a copy of gyuto. I've said I want the performance of a gyuto and have described, the best I can, what that means to me. I'm confident Matt understands it and will do a nice job. I sent him a gyuto, not to copy, but to test and evaluate. I expect him to understand the performance characteristics of the knife before he starts on his version of it. It isn't a template. It is an inspiration.

Also, I haven't ever said that a custom knifemaker couldn't deliver the performance of a gyuto. I have only said that none have. Matt understands all the issues and doesn't seem to be at all worried that he can do it. I'm not worried either.

Matt and I tentatively agreed to do the knife in S30V treated to around RC60. That will put its steel and edge performance in the range of the other gyutos with a thoroughly American stainless steel. I think it is a good choice not only for the project of an American gyuto but for the knife itself. I will happily post a review of the knife with images after I receive it. If I don't like it, I'll say so and why. If I do like it - same thing. You can see some of my gyuto reviews at http://216.91.137.210/gyutoreview.htm. I'll write a similar one for this knife. Good cooking.
 
KnifeOutlet, I think I misunderstood the challenge/contest aspect of this. Sounds like an interesting project. Again, if the task is to recreate based on those parameters, I'm sure Pinoy can do the job! Can't wait to see the finished product! Of course, since it's S30V, though, you realize it won't do well for thin slicing of concrete block, right? ;)
 
Knife Outlet said:
...S30V treated to around RC60.
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To compete with the Japanese style steels and edges in regards to edge holding you would want to push this a few points harder. BG-42 at ~64 HRC wold certainly hold its own in that regard. This though is mainly a side issue as noted, the more critical points are handle and blade shape.

-Cliff
 
Yes, BG42 will go somewhat harder. I could be wrong but I've always thought of it as being a little on the brittle side if it hardened to RC62 or so. S30V doesn't seem to be brittle at all. We also talked about some of the tool steels and carbon steels but decided we'd forego the patina and make it stainless. I would think S30V should make a very good kitchen knife. I have a few S30V sporting folders and I think it has a lot of appealing characteristics, not the least of which is its ability to hold an edge well.

The most recent trend in Japan is warikomi (laminated construction) with some of the new very hard powder steels in the core. Tojiro is making some knives with a stainless core hardened to around RC64-65-the same level as the Hitachi hagane steels. They use VG2 on the exterior (not unlike 420) to complement the overall toughness of the blade. I don't think that stuff is available in Oregon, though. :) To some degree we're playing catch up using the best of what we have available to us here. The Japanese makers have a significantly wider assortment of choices than we have. But this will be an American gyuto, not a Japanese one.
 
Knife Outlet said:
S30V doesn't seem to be brittle at all.
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S30V is certainly brittle. I've cut high guage sheet metal (a shed and a can) with S30V folders in RC 58 and RC 61 and chipped out the edges both times. Hopefully, your recipes won't call for such ingredients, but when S30V fails, it fails in a brittle manner.

If you're comparing edges of gyutos with RC60-64, why not have your maker, Mr. Cook, use S90V or BG42? Could he use a non-USA steel such as Cowry-Y?
 
There are not a lot of steels I would call tough at 60+ HRC, certainly not when you start approaching full hard, ductile failure isn't even seen on the tools steels then. O1 and 1095 are decently tough steels, but not at 60+ hrc, I have two such blades.

S30V chips readily even at the lower hardness Reeve uses, however for the type of knife you are using chipping usually isn't a concern. You will chip or damage anyway any of those ultra thin knives unless you are careful, which of course is part of the style of the knives.

S90 would be an option, however I really don't see the gain for kitchen knives of having the insane wear resistance of S90V when you can match the hardness with BG-42 which would be far cheaper to make.

Kitchen blunting is generally corrosion or deformation influenced, outside of western banging around anyway which leads to chipping and hence the softer steel and thicker edges. The steel is mainly a side issue anyway, the main concern is getting the feel and balance.

Laminates are kind of interesting for some heavier knives, however for kitchen knives, outside of reducing a patina on the flats which is just cosmetic, I don't see the point, unless they are cheaper of course than the full core steel knives.


-Cliff
 
The purpose of the warikomi is more than cosmetic. These blades result in a very thin core so there is less hard steel to remove when sharpening. These knives are easier to maintain than the ones that are hard through the entire thickness of the blade. The Masamoto VG10 knife above is more work to sharpen than my Kikuichi V Gold which has a VG-10 core with VG-2 wrapped around it in warikomi fashion. Kasumi construction in traditional Japanese knives forge welds hard carbon steel and soft iron together for this reason and others. There certainly is no cosmetic reason to do that. Quite the contrary. The iron rusts and corrodes faster than the steel. You can find these kinds of laminations in samurai swords as well that date back centuries.

I'll talk with Matt about the steel. I do have one of the older Reeve Sebenzas in BG-42. I think it is the only knife I own personally in that steel. Let me play with it a little and compare it to one of the S30V blades I have. I'm not sure it will tell me much but I can usually get somewhat of a feel for how a steel performs from sharpening blades. I don't intend to put them through the kinds of tests you conduct, that's for sure. :)
 
Knife Outlet said:
These blades result in a very thin core so there is less hard steel to remove when sharpening.
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This really should not be an issue for knives if you take advantage of the fact that when a knife blunts only the very edge actually needs to have metal removed to restore it.

Lee talks about this in his book on sharpening, shaping your chisels at 1-2 degrees under the optimal angle will allow honing trivially with a micro-bevel.

J.J. does the same thing in the Razor Edge series, create a relief grind and then just sharpen the very edge. Glesser promotes a similar idea with the Sharpmaker.

The only real advantage laminate have in regards to sharpening is the rat's tooth principle where the wear on the softer metals keeps the edge at a sharp profile, this is more so for digging tools than knives though.

-Cliff
 
Guy's Thank's for the confidence
i think this will be a fun project . i may make one very close to the knife Fred send's just to see if i can" Match " then maybe one of mine in M-2 just for fun . i got to see how the original feel's in hand first ,so i know where the weight /handle distribution should go then i can go from there .
 
The knife is here, Cliff. It arrived on Monday and I'm testing it at the moment. What counts is performance and it will take a while to judge the way S30V performs in the kitchen. I thought the fit and finish of the knife had some minor problems and it balances a tad forward of perfect but, all in all, things are going well with it in the kitchen. It is incredibly light. It behaves something like a sports car. There's an initeal reaction. Give me a couple of weeks and at least one sharpening and I'll post the review. Here's an image.

pinoygyuto.jpg
 
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