a question about copycats

E

exxarkun78

Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Messages
124
Is it considered bad form to to copy someone else's design now i'm not sure who made the knife in question first and I wouldn't say its a ripoff but a pretty exact copy of the design other than makers mark and a few aesthetic flourishes is it an homage is it imitation is the sincerest form of flattery or is it just kinda a low move ?
 
It is intellectuall property theft, plain and simple. This is why myself, and several of us here, hate copies. It is stealing.
 
If you pay to use whatever design you are using then it is flattery. If you steal it without paying it (like the Emerson wave feature or axis lock or the whole knife design) then no, it's a forgery/counterfeit. And I hate counterfeits.
 
T.K.C. said:
It is intellectuall property theft, plain and simple. This is why myself, and several of us here, hate copies. It is stealing.
Click to expand...
So how different do you feel the design has to be before it's not a copy? There are lots of drop points, bowies, tantos, etc. If it's the same blade shape but a different handle is it still a copy? I guess I'm asking at what point does it cease to be copy and becomes original? Now I know Ganzo knives copy components so I'm not foolishly claiming they arent, but there is a Lionsteel knife that I love that uses a single block of machined aluminum for the handle and framelock. The Ganzo version is steel with g-10 scales and an axis-type lock (total ripoff of Benchmade, I know, lol). Now only the look of the scales and blade-shape is the same as the Lionsteel, in every other way it's a different knife with a different name. Now leaving the hated Ganzo name and benchmade lock out of the equation, is this in your opinion a copy of the Lionsteel knife or not?

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
 
I would say that any knife you could confuse with the original with either squinting or a good camera angle is unacceptable as far as intellectual property goes. That you had to ask honestly answers your question - you immediately knew what knife it was supposed to represent. If anything, it's closer to being a copy of the LionSpy by not being an integral frame knife.

I would also add that their addition of an axis lock to the design, another proprietary design, certainly gives them no additional originality points. Same goes for their PM2 copy.

Edit: you have to be kidding me with that "the blade and handles look the same but it's otherwise completely different" statement. Just because they used cheaper materials doesn't make it a more legitimate effort...
 
Clones are bad. People who buy clones should feel bad. Taking inspiration from previous knife designs is fine.
 
T.K.C. said:
It is intellectuall property theft, plain and simple. This is why myself, and several of us here, hate copies. It is stealing.
Click to expand...

Agreed, though the "line" seems hard to define. Say someone decides to make almost exact copies of a maker's "signature" pieces, like, say, of Randalls.

Would that be theft? Is that across the line?
 
On the subject of copied knife designs-

Tell me these two knives are not direct copies of the Buck 110. The first time I saw them, with no description provided, I thought they were Buck 110's. Does that make them "clones"? How about "counterfeits"? Is Schrade guilty of "intellectual property theft"?

http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/SC...paw-lockback-folding-knife-blade-wood-handles

http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/SC...-5-inch-Closed-Lockback-Stainless-Steel-Blade

I seriously doubt that Buck gave a competitor permission to copy one of their designs, have it made in China, and sell it for cheaper than a real Buck 110. I also seriously doubt that Schrade just coincidentally came up with a knife design that just happened to be the same size, look almost identical, and have the same lock as one of the most popular knives in history.

And you know what else? Those two knives are being sold by a paid sponsor of Bladeforums. Bladeforums is being sponsored by a vendor who sells copies, and in return, Bladeforums promotes that vendor and recommends that it's members buy knives from that vendor.

Welcome to Bladeforums. Sponsored by vendors who sell- well, what would YOU call them? Copies? Clones? Counterfeits? Stolen intellectual property?
 
killgar said:
On the subject of copied knife designs-

Tell me these two knives are not direct copies of the Buck 110. The first time I saw them, with no description provided, I thought they were Buck 110's. Does that make them "clones"? How about "counterfeits"? Is Schrade guilty of "intellectual property theft"?

http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/SC...paw-lockback-folding-knife-blade-wood-handles

http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/SC...-5-inch-Closed-Lockback-Stainless-Steel-Blade

I seriously doubt that Buck gave a competitor permission to copy one of their designs, have it made in China, and sell it for cheaper than a real Buck 110. I also seriously doubt that Schrade just coincidentally came up with a knife design that just happened to be the same size, look almost identical, and have the same lock as one of the most popular knives in history.

And you know what else? Those two knives are being sold by a paid sponsor of Bladeforums. Bladeforums is being sponsored by a vendor who sells copies, and in return, Bladeforums promotes that vendor and recommends that it's members buy knives from that vendor.

Welcome to Bladeforums. Sponsored by vendors who sell- well, what would YOU call them? Copies? Clones? Counterfeits? Stolen intellectual property?
Click to expand...

That argument goes back to the 70s. The Schrade was an improved version of the 110, not a direct copy.
 
Comeuppance said:
I would say that any knife you could confuse with the original with either squinting or a good camera angle is unacceptable as far as intellectual property goes. That you had to ask honestly answers your question - you immediately knew what knife it was supposed to represent. If anything, it's closer to being a copy of the LionSpy by not being an integral frame knife.

I would also add that their addition of an axis lock to the design, another proprietary design, certainly gives them no additional originality points. Same goes for their PM2 copy.

Edit: you have to be kidding me with that "the blade and handles look the same but it's otherwise completely different" statement. Just because they used cheaper materials doesn't make it a more legitimate effort...
Click to expand...
Actually I'm not kidding. One is a solid block of aluminum cut by CNC and well designed, the other is screwed together metal with seperate g10 scales. These are totally different designs that "look" similar. Is it a copy if it "looks" like the other, or must it be constructed the exact same way? I will explain again that I'm not defending Ganzo, nor do I wish to buy the knife, it was just an example. My question (and you have given your opinion so thank you!) was if other knife collectors look to the appearance, or design when deciding something is a copy or not. I am not taking a side, just trying to further discussion. Thanks.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
 
killgar said:
On the subject of copied knife designs-

Tell me these two knives are not direct copies of the Buck 110. The first time I saw them, with no description provided, I thought they were Buck 110's. Does that make them "clones"? How about "counterfeits"? Is Schrade guilty of "intellectual property theft"?

http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/SC...paw-lockback-folding-knife-blade-wood-handles

http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/SC...-5-inch-Closed-Lockback-Stainless-Steel-Blade

I seriously doubt that Buck gave a competitor permission to copy one of their designs, have it made in China, and sell it for cheaper than a real Buck 110. I also seriously doubt that Schrade just coincidentally came up with a knife design that just happened to be the same size, look almost identical, and have the same lock as one of the most popular knives in history.

And you know what else? Those two knives are being sold by a paid sponsor of Bladeforums. Bladeforums is being sponsored by a vendor who sells copies, and in return, Bladeforums promotes that vendor and recommends that it's members buy knives from that vendor.

Welcome to Bladeforums. Sponsored by vendors who sell- well, what would YOU call them? Copies? Clones? Counterfeits? Stolen intellectual property?
Click to expand...

That's the quote of the thread right there. It's fine in some cases, but not in others. The double standards are jaw dropping. Either stolen designs are bad or good, some minds need to be made up.
 
Well that's a very rough question as it's lends mixed feelings.I think some will tell you it's not okay but secretly approve in cases.Here's some random thoughts...

*The Spyderco Manix 2 handle shape is definitely imitated from Pat Crawford's Carnivore design but not executed as beautifully.The Carnivore was much nicer but some will dismiss it and say 'eh...it's USA made and a Spyderco...leave it be'.

*The Buck 110 remains the original and still standing lockback.Yet if you look back on the original Schrade's,Camillus,Imperial,and Kershaw lockbacks...they were a finer improvement over the 110 on ridiculously good levels.

*The Sanrenmu 710..you know the Sebenza copycat story on it's facsimile.Should people drop $400 for some titanium and S30V? or just drop the $11 for Sanrenmu's model and have a custom blade made for the handle?...interesting argument to make here.

Copycat designs obviously don't just exist in China.But there's quite a bit of perceptions to dive into when comparing a similar knife to another.
 
Last edited:
The double standard on this forum is astounding. There should never be any discussion of Microtech after their theft of ZT-0777 design with the Matrix, but here on BF all is forgiven for that singular company. Anyone else? Grab the pitchfork and noose.
 
45Wheelgun said:
The double standard on this forum is astounding. There should never be any discussion of Microtech after their theft of ZT-0777 design with the Matrix, but here on BF all is forgiven for that singular company. Anyone else? Grab the pitchfork and noose.
Click to expand...

You must be new here, Microtech has a poor reputation here that is most definitely tarnished by that blatant copycat move of theirs, there have not been very many apologists for microtech here and certainly nobody standing up for them copying Kai's in-house design.
 
KingMC said:
You must be new here, Microtech has a poor reputation here that is most definitely tarnished by that blatant copycat move of theirs, there have not been very many apologists for microtech here and certainly nobody standing up for them copying Kai's in-house design.
Click to expand...

Good to know. I must be confusing posts I've read other places.
 
Here we go again, the bottom line, 99.9999999 percent of the human population don't give a rats a$$ one way or another, and yes I'm with the majority on this one.
 
Coke or Pepsi ? (Is anyone still swallowing this classic symbol of Americana?)
Victorinox (There can be only one) or Wenger (Now Defunct) ?
The list is endless.
If you're on to a good thing,
you can be sure
of "hounds" hot at your heels.
Its only fair and ethical to buy an original design first
And then find fault with fakes or clones to no end.
 
What happens when a particular knife is no longer in production or is made of a material that one is not interested in, yet he is interested in that form of design in a preferred/different material?

Also, what happens if a certain design is not as large or as small as the one someone would like? And what happens if a certain knife has a handle shape that someone wishes to incorporate into a different blade they have in mind?

If one goes and makes any such knife, would that be deemed as a form of theft by anyone?

Furthermore, who is it that defines a theft that has not been established as such in law? What are they doing in reality?

I mean; someone could steal some food and not get caught, but if there was any form of bona fide proof to their action brought forward at a later date, and it is brought before a court, then any such person would be charged with theft. The accusation or claim then becomes a fact, and not before. So whether a true act of theft is witnessed during its occurrence or otherwise, gives no man the right to claim it as such until such times as the matter has been properly adjudicated before the law. It stems from the axiom that one is innocent till proven guilty.

My concern in all this is WHY there has not been any charges brought against any of the aforementioned alleged thieving parties? And given none have, then any accusation is in fact slander against any such party, if that party wishes to pursue it and prove it in law.

So who is committing the worst offense?

I have already addressed this matter with certain litigation lawyers and barristers who know me well, and they all advised that it would be almost impossible to prove that any knife is intellectual property of any form given that most all designs have been made in their basic form dating back centuries if not millennia. The only thing they feel which can be compelled in law is, (a) copying of brand name, and (b) a new form of locking mechanism which can be proven to be different in its fundamental principle of operation, and that, by at least 3 independent and impartial renowned mechanical design engineers which are approved by an adjudicating court or Court. The former may have to deal with the matter as certain forms of slander can be classified and deemed as a criminal offense, therefore the plaintiff in such matter may choose to have the matter dealt with before a court of original jurisdiction, an organic court, not a commercial Court, because they may be seeking incarceration of the alleged for harm caused, not just injury.

So the shape of a blade and its handle is out of the question in law, and if it's out of the question in law, then any form of "deemed" copying is not [copying].

Have a nice day.:)
 
Last edited:
I will abstain from this conversation, although I drive a model T, and stayed at a holiday Inn last night.


Russ
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top