A question about Delta 3V

D

DMG

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
2,386
I have a Carothers with the Delta 3V which I understand to be 3V with the Delta heat treat. It is great, although I havent tried pounding it through a bolt. I also have a Survive GSO with the D3V heat treat. I haven’t used it a lot but I am wondering if it will offer the same performance?
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
A discussion stated when I saw an example of some work on IG that did not appear to me to demonstrate the edge stability that we strive for with this process (it's the whole purpose of this process) so I called Guy on the phone. In my discussion with him it sounded like they were dealing with some inconsistencies in the results and they finally made the decision to step back a bit into an older approach to their heat treat.
Click to expand...
He continues on about Guy not putting out a bad product, so maybe what started the discussion was a r&d blank or a 2nd.
 
If you trust Survive Knives to have actually followed the Delta heat treat protocol, it should perform the same. There is some speculation as to whether they stayed true to the recipe however. I personally trust a Carothers made blade to be the best it can be when it leaves their shop. As to cutting bolts, that is destructive level testing done by makers. It’s not a normal cutting test end users should be performing unless they’re willing to accept the consequences personally.
 
Delgadonine said:
Why did I read this?

Dang it, now I want a Carothers.

Adds to the list.

Subtracts from the bank account sometime in the future.

I hate math.
Click to expand...

*Math (Science)tells us good steel, and good heat treatment will cut bolts with optimized geometry.
Nothing more, nothing less.

Excellent steel, and Excellent heat treatment isn't exactly needed. It's awesome, but not really needed....

Knowing this "almost" makes the stunt seem like a parlor trick.... ;)
 
beeinak said:
Short answer is NO it will not have the same performance.

Heat treat protocol is only one part of a blades performance, and CPK optimizes the geometry, ergonomics, and grinds. They are phenomenal knives.
Click to expand...
Of course we would control for the grind and geometry. Ergonomics and geometry are good on both but I do prefer the Carothers.
 
Bill Siegle said:
If you trust Survive Knives to have actually followed the Delta heat treat protocol, it should perform the same. There is some speculation as to whether they stayed true to the recipe however. I personally trust a Carothers made blade to be the best it can be when it leaves their shop. As to cutting bolts, that is destructive level testing done by makers. It’s not a normal cutting test end users should be performing unless they’re willing to accept the consequences personally.
Click to expand...
I have no plans to hammer either knife through bolts or nails. I like both knives and want them to last.
 
CPK has their large batches of knives heat treated to their “Delta” protocol by Peters HT who also heat treated knives for Survive so that factor alone is sort of a moot point when “performance” is discussed. As was brought up earlier, many other attributes of the knife become the way the knife should be judged and Guy doesn’t come close to Nate when true design plays into how the knife balances and fits in the hand during use, not just playing with it in the recliner, during actual use.

The nod should also be given to Lorien Arnold for his designing many CPK models; with that tag team I don’t think there’s going to be many ways a Survive knife is going to offer the same or better “performance”.
 
Aside from design feature differences, If you wade through the Survive thread in GB&U there's a couple of posts discussing controlling the grain direction. There are pictures which show that some knives were cut from the steel sheet perpendicular the grain direction. (That's bad.) So there is variability in Survive knives which does not exist in Carothers blades.

L

Bad Post in thread 'Survive! Deserves A Permanent Post In The Hall Of Shame'

Huntsman Knife Co. LLC. said:
If this is true, that explains most of his problems with production. Blanks cut in the wrong direction are almost impossible to straighten AND have no durability. Don't ask me how I know this....
Click to expand...
I found this in one of their videos:
(about 4:40)
It seems some of their blanks are indeed cut perpendicular to the rolling direction.
IMG-2652.jpg
 
knarfeng said:
Aside from design feature differences, If you wade through the Survive thread in GB&U there's a couple of posts discussing controlling the grain direction. There are pictures which show that some knives were cut from the steel sheet perpendicular the grain direction. (That's bad.) So there is variability in Survive knives which does not exist in Carothers blades.

L

Bad Post in thread 'Survive! Deserves A Permanent Post In The Hall Of Shame'

Huntsman Knife Co. LLC. said:
If this is true, that explains most of his problems with production. Blanks cut in the wrong direction are almost impossible to straighten AND have no durability. Don't ask me how I know this....
Click to expand...
I found this in one of their videos:
(about 4:40)
It seems some of their blanks are indeed cut perpendicular to the rolling direction.
IMG-2652.jpg
Click to expand...
I’ll post up pics after work and someone can tel me if they got the grain direction right.
 
Jsega51 said:
CPK has their large batches of knives heat treated to their “Delta” protocol by Peters HT who also heat treated knives for Survive so that factor alone is sort of a moot point when “performance” is discussed. As was brought up earlier, many other attributes of the knife become the way the knife should be judged and Guy doesn’t come close to Nate when true design plays into how the knife balances and fits in the hand during use, not just playing with it in the recliner, during actual use.

The nod should also be given to Lorien Arnold for his designing many CPK models; with that tag team I don’t think there’s going to be many ways a Survive knife is going to offer the same or better “performance”.
Click to expand...

They did get the same heats, times, steps, and pre-staging that would, in theory, give the same results.

I have been making some small tweaks to the steel during the manufacturing process that he wasn't.

My spacing in the oven limits my batch size to a fraction of his batch size. In practice, our quench rate was not the same.

My blades are near net shape during heat treat, his blades were full thickness blanks which have a much slower quench rate at the edge.

His blades were ground hard and could possibly have been exposed to temperatures during grinding that would have an effect on an important aspect of the heat treat.

His knives were sharpened dry.

His application of the protocol ended up being a little bit different than mine. I was very concerned when I saw that knife with the Delta protocol that had significant edge damage when it shouldn't have. I reached out to him because it appeared to me that there was a problem.

I'm not saying that there's necessarily anything wrong with his work. That one example I saw looked pretty suspect to me. I don't know. But it is my opinion that his application of the Delta protocol might not have been the same as mine. It might have been a little bit borderline which would explain why he backed up to an older protocol for his process.
 
A low temperature tweak can be worse than a standard process, if you don't stay on top of stabilizing retained austenite.

Also, there is an aspect to some heat treats that are heat sensitive that don't significantly affect measured hardness, but do have a measurable effect on the behavior of the edge. I stay away from hard grinding and dry sharpening to avoid causing a problem that I don't have a good mechanism to catch.
 
DMG said:
I’ll post up pics after work and someone can tel me if they got the grain direction right.
Click to expand...

You're not going to be able to look at a finished knife and determine grain direction by just looking at it.

You can have your sheet cross rolled 50/50 and have no grain bias. It's possible, in that picture, it might not matter. I don't know.

On swords, I have the sheet rolled with extra bias.

I'm about to make some planer blades where we are intentionally putting the bias perpendicular to the blade because the well supported blade is not going to break, but the edge might. And that little bit of a toughness bump is actually more useful across the edge, rather than along it.

Grain is an important element to consider, but it is not always right or wrong. It would be fully appropriate to do it "wrong" on certain kinds of knives.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
You're not going to be able to look at a finished knife and determine grain direction by just looking at it.

You can have your sheet cross rolled 50/50 and have no grain bias. It's possible, in that picture, it might not matter. I don't know.

On swords, I have the sheet rolled with extra bias.

I'm about to make some planer blades where we are intentionally putting the bias perpendicular to the blade because the well supported blade is not going to break, but the edge might. And that little bit of a toughness bump is actually more useful across the edge, rather than along it.

Grain is an important element to consider, but it is not always right or wrong. It would be fully appropriate to do it "wrong" on certain kinds of knives.
Click to expand...


I had a reblade heat treated by a knife maker known for using A8(mod). The idea behind using that steel was to allow the knife to do some light chopping of branches, which -- because of uneven grain changes in the wood -- can create some severe stresses along the edge.

All the maker had was a small scrap of A8(mod) that was barely large enough to made a 4-inch blade. I asked about the grain direction, and was told it was OK, but I now have my doubts.

Using this super-tough steel in the same way as an exactly paired blade with the same geometry and shape in Vanax (both replaces for a Benchmade Rukus 610), the A8(mod) failed and the Vanax did not.

Here's a shot of the A8(mod) blade <60 Rc that chipped, but also cracked along what seems to be (although I really don't know for sure) poor grain direction.

2v2HtjqHGxAWtWs.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top