A question about SOG blade steel....

R

Richard Gross

Joined
Jul 7, 2005
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191
At the risk of being drummed out of the corp, can anyone shed any light on why SOG uses mostly AUS8 steel (with some AUS6 thrown in). Why not some of the higher grade steels such as 154CM (or its Japanese equiv.-ATS34) and of course, BG42 (which is an outstanding steel). 154CM/ATS34 has a higher chromium content, and holds an edge much better and is as easy if not easier to sharpen. And BG42 goes without saying, a superior steel to most anything in its price point, with the exception of maybe S30V. This is my own opinion, but, I would surmise that if SOG upgraded its blade steel, and raised the price point just a bit (still a heck of a bargain), they (SOG) would move up in the ranks in the knife world. And another thing, I'm getting tired of defending SOG and their use of AUS steels. Now, I know that there is nothing wrong with AUS steel. Holds an edge well and is fairly easy to maintain. I would just like to see more high grade steel in SOG knives, especially the fixed blades. I have now donned my flak jacket & helmet, you may commence firing.
 
No incoming fire from my direction, I fully agree that SOG knives should upgrade their steel used. At the least, if they'd offer certain models with upgraded steel, I'd be much more interested in 'em. :thumbup:
 
I think Aus8 is a fine stainless steel. The Aus8 in my Twitch II responds very well, no burr formation at all. Have you actually found it deficient? Have you used those steels you say is superior? Have you found any drawbacks other than price? For me I find Aus8, 440C, and 440A the crispest steels to sharpen.

I think you would feel better if they lied and told you they were using BG42.
 
I have and currently own knives of various steels, all the way from AUS8, SK-5, 1095, 154CM, CPM154, S30V, AST34, S60V, 440A, 420J, 440C, BG42, D2, M2 and probably some I've forgotten. There are pluses and minuses in all of them. Ther is No PERFECT steel (even ZPM189 has its drawbacks). Now the nice thing about AUS8, at least in the state the SOG uses it, is that the Rc is fairly low compared to some of the super steels. This allows for more flexibility in the blade vs the brittleness of high Rc. But, on the other hand, the better steels, especially in the mid-price range, such as ATS34/154CM, and S30V, have better edge holding ability. That is, they need to be resharpened less that the softer steels. Now, just about any steel, if properly maintained, will outlast its owner. But, the truth of the matter is that most knife owners do not know about the care and feeding of a quality knife. I have personally seen what folks will do to a knife and it is not pretty. My favorite all around steel is ATS34/154CM. Can be hardened to Rc 60 or more (which IMHO is too hard/brittle), is easy to field sharpen, and holds an edge amazingly well. And from the manufacturers point of view, is fairly easy to grind. Now, you may wonder why I refer to this particular steel as ATS34/154CM. This particular steel started out life as a U.S. manufactured steel. It was them exported to Japan and thru some quirk of fate, the Japanese made some subtle changes and it became ATS34. But chemically (if that is the right word), ATS34 and 154CM are identical twins. And, ATS34 was for years, the steel of choice for Buck Knives, especially while they were still here in San Diego, CA (actually, Santee, CA). I could go on about the pluses and minuses of each steel, but I don't think that is necessary to waste band width. There is much more technical and non-technical writing about each steel used in knife manufacturing on the web. My only reason for starting this thread was to ask the question, "Why does SOG use primarily AUS steels and not some of the better grades?"
 
Maybe there IS a reason why use AUS6/8 on fixed blades as it can be tougher a bit than higher grade steels (but I think carbon steel is what suits fixed blades best).
IMHO there is no reason besides the cost why to use it on folders.
 
I agree that carbon steel is probably much more preferred by custom knife makers for fixed blades. Easier to work, takes a fairly nice finish and is easy to sharpen. But, as any long time collector will tell you, carbon steel is maintenance intensive. The knives we were issued in Nam were carbon steel and at one time were gun-blued. By the time we were issued them, they had been in storage for a while and having been previously used, there was little or no blueing left and a lot of surface rust had taken the place of the blueing. The first thing we had to do was to clean and resharpen before even thinking of using. And carbon steel can be heat treated and hardened to a Rc of 56-58 which is a good range for a fixed blade that will be used in a myriad of situations that a folder just would not work. For the most part, you don't want a fixed blade above 58 and it would be too brittle. A fixed blade needs some degree of flexibility.
 
Richard Gross said:
At the risk of being drummed out of the corp, can anyone shed any light on why SOG uses mostly AUS8 steel (with some AUS6 thrown in).
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Like many things in life, it comes down to cost. They've chosen the type of customer they want to sell to and have made knives at a price point those customers will buy. If they used ATS-34, S30V or other such steels as their "standard," the price of their knives would go up high enough those customers will not buy. My guess is that they believe there is more money/profits in their current product line. But who knows?
 
Mr Richard Gross, what is your piece in CPM154? I hear that's a whole different animal than 154CM/ATS34, as in much nicer to heat-treat and has better end-properties. My experience with ATS34 hasn't been swell in my AFCK. As for S30V, it's nice, but it burrs more than some Aus8, 440C, and 440A pieces I've used.
 
SOG made folders and fixed blades of BG-42 :cool: (the folders could of had a much better design :( ). They quit making them because the steel was too expensive and they switched to S30V and now (as far as i know) they dont make any in that now. I am looking for them to start making more in S30V perhaps some in a new design (more plain edged ones hopefully) in the near future and keep the RCH to 59 or less. They have been making a couple very nice Bowies in SK-5, Vision models in ATS-34 :yawn: , and the AutoTech in San Mai.
 
kel_aa said:
Mr Richard Gross, what is your piece in CPM154? I hear that's a whole different animal than 154CM/ATS34, as in much nicer to heat-treat and has better end-properties. My experience with ATS34 hasn't been swell in my AFCK. As for S30V, it's nice, but it burrs more than some Aus8, 440C, and 440A pieces I've used.
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The problem with CPM154 is current availability. Crucible Steel, the manufacturer of CPM154, is way behing on orders according to the latest info I have. The chemical makeup of CPM154 is vastly different that 154CM. It is denser, less tendency to have voids, and as you say, easier to heat-treat and sharpen. And it takes a real nice finish. But, it is also much more expensive than the regular 154CM.
 
Made in Japan = Japanese steel = AUS#, ATS, etc.

Made in U.S.A. = U.S.A. steel = 420*, 440* etc.
 
I have heard so many arguments and discussions on types of steel used when in fact any steel is not worth a tinker's hoot if it is not heat treated properly for its intended use. The fact is in most cases a steel like AUS 8 is a better choice for a fighting blade that may be subject to shock and torque and need less edge holding properties in realtime situations. When one has had to parry another blade or other hard object and needs to restore an edge IN THE FIELD, edge retention like in a steel running 62 RC may work against you.

I own a custom made stag handled drop point knife of ATS-34 that holds a tenacious edge. This blade rockwells at 62-63 and I have field dressed 20 deer with it and have never sharpened it. I have only dressed the edge with a butcher's steel. I would not want to restore the complete edge on this knife. We are talking hours with a wachita stone! And trust me guys this badboy does not touch anything harder than elk or deer hide. Needless to say, this is not my camping knife nor the first grabbed for self protection.

Now my Tigershark and Spec Elite go with me whenever I head out for a jaunt that may include running into a Rott or Dobie escaping from my neighbor's yard. These boys want me and my Lab stud dog really bad. If I have to shove a blade hilt deep into the chest of a 180 lb Rottweiler I would rather have 9 inches of AUS 6 tempered for shock resistance and toughness than anything else. If that ever happens, how well it holds an edge won't mean squat.

This comment will probably not end the seemingly endless retoric of the myopic missinformed but hopefully it may prove to be food for thought for the more reflective followers of this forum.
Best regards to all,
Denny
300WSM
 
Could not agree with you more. The most exotic steel, if not heat-treated properly, is worthless. AUS6 and AUS8 are perfect steels for most fixed blade knives used in combat/defensive situations. Treated to Rc57-60 range allows them to have excellent edge retention and still allows for some flexibility. But, I would like to see SOG folders using a bit higher quality steel as folders are not usually subjected to the stresses that fixed blades are.
 
Richard,
Point taken. And, yes, a little better edge retention in my SOG folders might be nice but then I usually grab some other blade (OK, I am a certifiable knife knut [sic]) when serious repetative cutting is required. Having it both ways is always nice. I have a 3G laminate bladed folder made by a certain Swedish competitor that is wicked sharp and stays that way with just a lick of the steel. Yea Richard, you are right, that's nice. Once again, point taken.
Best regards,
Denny
300WSM
 
If you are talking about toughness, shock resistance etc. why then AUS8 (or other stainless)? Simplest carbon steel will do much better (and will be easier to sharpen in the field :)).
AUS8 is pretty rubbish for the price SOG is asking. No matter if it is folder or fixed blade.
 
I don't think so. If you take a close look, a real close look, at some of SOGs competitors in the same price range, (I won't name names at this point), you may be surprised at the differences. For what SOG gets for AUS8 knives, some are getting quite a bit more for lesser steels. As much as I feel that there are better steels than AUS8 for folders especially, AUS8 is a far better steel than some of the 420s that are in general use. Or some of the Chinese steels that are coming into this country lately. And how much of the competition has the Arc-Lock? So, steel type notwithstanding, I firmly believe that SOG has found a niche market and, all things considered-steel, Arc-Lock, style, ruggedness-I think SOG is a helluva deal in todays knife market. You can still spend more and get less.
 
Richard,
You are proving to be an an intelligent and articulate sort of fellow. Excellent observation and a very astute point. It is the entire package after all is it not? What are we really looking for in a knife's performance? I suppose in our dreams we look for the knife that does it all but when it comes down to reality we must always look for the best compromise when we look at the folder today. Yes, the quintessential "perfect" knife probably exists but at what price? And if it does exist it lies in quiescent repose locked in a vault far too expensive and valuable to really use. There is a good topic for the forum, "just what is your idea of the perfect knife?" When you add up all of the good features of the SOG line they are quite impressive for the money.
Best regards,
Denny
300WSM
 
Thanks for the kudos. This has been a very interesting and enlightening thread. At the risk of sounding like a "steel snob", I still appreciate the benefits of the upper ranks of knife steels, but, bottom line, I like SOGs and will continue to purchase and use them as long as they do the job I need done. BTW: Just picked up the latest copy of Knives Illustrated (Aug 2006). Very good article on SOG and a product hilight of the Topo series. Looks and reads like SOG has a friend in the magazine industry.
 
I'll jump into this one to simply offer a personal experience observation......

I'm sharpening-challenged. But a couple of years ago I figured out a method to put razor-sharp on my most all of my SOG's. Specifically the ones with SK-5 and AUS-x steel.

The SOG's which I cannot put sharp upon are my Recondo and (former) Field Knife. That rock-hard BG-42 steel just laughs at me when I try to sharpen it.

SO: rather than go exotic, I'm staying with a steel which I can sharpen both at home and in the field. It's not the subtleties and subjectivities of edge retention, chrome content, or other technical aspects of composition. I've decided my own # 1 top-of-the-list spec is my own ability to sharpen the knife.

The SOG's I have with SK-5 and AUS 6 and/or AUS 8 are perfect for me. I recognize my sharpening limitation, am perfectly content to live with it, and am quite happy with the steels of the SOG knives I have.

Cheers,

Carl
 
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