A question for more expereinced smiths

C

Cougar_222

Joined
Dec 25, 2013
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To start with, I do have several years of experience with stick welding, working with various metals and have even created a few artistic knives, using Damascus (or other) steel I bought, cutting, grinding, shaping and heat treating myself, so I'm not a complete idiot. I can usually do about anything I make up my mind to attempt, but I also have yet to fire up the forge I just finished making so I am a serious novice when it comes to forging metals. I understand many of the properties and issues relating to various metals and alloys from welding, but when it comes to forging, again I'm new.

My question relates to what someone can get away with when it comes to combining different steel alloys. I understand different steel alloys have different properties including their coefficients of expansion, which I suspect would come into play strongly when a piece is heat treated. I have also heard that in some high quality Japanese swords (for example) that a softer, tougher, more durable steel can be used to jacket the cutting edge metal providing a better overal piece than the same in a mono-steel blade, Without getting to crazy - could I get away with jacketing say CPM 3V with Damascus, AEB-L with say 302, or other combinations as long as I stay in the same region as the edge metal?.

To probably go to far, could someone jacket damascus, CPM 3V, D2 or M2 with 302 and have the blade survive the heat treat without exploding on them?

I'm also thinking about trying to create art work pieces that won't need to be heat treated combining moderate alloy steels and some form of stainless, Any advise from the people who know far more than I?

Thanks
 
I can understand the preference for 416 / 410 as they are Martensitic (and thus can be hardened by heat treating), and was actually pleasantly surprised to notice the similarities between 302 and 410. 302 basically has the same carbon content, about 6 % more chrome, 9% nickel that the 410 doesn't have and an extra % of manganese. I ended up picking up a good sized sheet of it at a scrap yard to use a small portion for another project, and so far have somewhat pleasantly surprised by it's qualities. It acts like a fairly tough spring steel, or a stainless with spring qualities. I figure best case it will make a good San mai jacketing material, it is tough and worst case I can use it for experimentation / art pieces in some form of wild Damascus style billet.

I did see the thread you mentioned and was in awe of the work of the masters that posted pictures of their finished products there. You certainly have Very talented artists in Metal in this forum. I doubt that will happen any time soon, but I can at least hope that some day my work will be in the same ball park as theirs. I tend to learn quickly and have been known to be creative.

Thank You for your reply.
 
OK, the answer is partly Yes and partly No.

As you said, you have no experience...so for you, and for now, the answer is NO.
Now, for an experienced smith with the skills and equipment, many of the combinations you listed are possible. Any core material that does not need extreme high HT would be the better choice. Obviously, the side layers would have to survive the HT of the core. Using materials that are somewhat compatible as far as HT is the best situation. Stainless sides and carbon core CAN be done, but it isn't simple...or for beginners.

Once you have learned to forge, making a san-mai billet will be easier, but you need the forge welding skills to do it. Start with a simple core and a simple side. Layering 52100 with wrought iron or 1003 and placing a thin nickel layer (.027")between them is a good first san-mai billet. When you get that down pat, try welding damascus sides to a high carbon core ( W2, 1095, 52100, etc.).

This subject is currently being discussed in the Shop Talk forum in two different threads ( three now). Here is my answer to a very similar question asked a day or two ago:

1) Build a decent forge - It should have a chamber size of 4" by 12" long at a minimum. A 1" to 1.25" blown burner will be far better for welding. The forge must be able to reach 2400F and hold that temp for an hour or more. Get a 3# forging hammer, and a 2.5# cross peen, plus a pair of Z-box tongs for 1/4" bar stock.
2) Learn to forge with those hammers - Start with simple carbon steel, like 1084, and learn to forge shapes as desired. Knowing how the steel will move under the hammer is essential to forge welding. Start with 3/4" round stock, or 1/2" to 3/4" thick flat stock. Forge hot, quit when it gets to warm, never forge cool ( hot, warm, and cool are relative to smiths....all are really hot in the normal sense of the words). The steel should be at 2100F when you start, and you quit at 1600F. That is roughly from yellow to red. Never forge when it is dull red or cooler.
3) Learn to weld with your new forging skills - Start with simple two piece welds in 1084. Place a 4" piece on a 12" piece and tack weld the ends. Use the extra length as a handle and weld the two into a two-bar billet. Draw out that billet until it is all 1/4" and make the cut at 4" from the end. fold and re-weld. Fold about five or six times. This is a simple mono-steel billet that should show light hada ( lines in the steel surface).
4) Learn to make Damascus with your new welding skills - Start with two 1.5X4"x.25" and one 16X1.5X.25" pieces of 1084, and two 1.5X4X.25" pieces of O-1. Use the long piece as the handle, and place it in the center of the billet stack. Clamp tightly in a vise and weld the ends up. From there follow the welding procedures you like and make the welds. After the weld is solid, draw and fold it seven times. You will have a nice long 640 layer bar of Damascus when done.

Don't expect this to all be easy or work the first, second, or third time...or every time once you get it down.

There is more to welding than this simple explanation, and you should read a few good books/tutorials on the subject first. The topic has been heavily discussed in Shop Talk, and on other forums, so a search should get lots of reading info.
 
Is there a reason that a gas forge is required or highly preferred over a coal forge? I ask because I just finished making and testing out (in spite of the cold weather) a decent coal forge that at least seems like it should last me for many years. Thanks again.
 
I am not going to say you CAN'T weld Damascus in a coal forge, But I will say that it will be much easier in a gas forge.

There are many reasons for this - Temperature regulation, atmosphere control, avoidance of contaminates, ability to heat a much larger billet evenly, etc.

Coal forges have their purpose, as well as just being fun in the nostalgic sense of forging. However, very few serious makers use one exclusively.
 
I learned to weld Damascus in a coal forge. A number of years ago, some top Damascus makers were saying that a gas forge could not weld Damascus.
That of course has been disproven many times.
I have a coal forge, and several gas forges. I much prefer the gas forge to make Damascus.
 
What I'm getting from you is it won't hurt to start with a coal forge, and I thank you for that insight. From what I have noticed in research - it seems a) You have to watch the temps your coal forge gets your blade / steel to - as they can run hotter than gas, b) there are possible issues with burning the steel or adding carbon to the metal, c) coal isn't the easiest thing to find now days, and lastly that fluxing can become more problematic with a coal forge.

I'm anxious for the arctic blast (below zero) or wind chills in that area to be past so I can give the coal / charcoal forge a good run to check it out.

Again my thanks.
 
From what I have seen and read most of the guys that weld with coal make little cave in the coal and use that to get the heat. That and they need to be constantly monitored and adjusted. I don't think I have the patents. You have to monitor the forge and the steel much better. If you weld and have any access to some pipe, a little Koawool, a bit of refractory and a small blower, a gas forge is dead simple to make. Once its fired up running and adjusted it will hardly ever need tweaking as you work.
 
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