A sad commentary about custom makers I hear frequently

Joined
Nov 9, 2000
Messages
26
I seem to be hearing this more and more, a sad commentary on the people in my profession. A little long, and if I'm in the wrong forum hopefully the moderator will let me know and or move it.
I recently replied to a post in a machinist oriented Usenet news group looking for someone to make sword handles for him. This is his posts and my replies;

: ZJ (I changed the address) > wrote in message
:
: I have a weird requirement, and I think it will have to be done
: commerically, or if by a hobbyist, one who can be relied on to do the
: work. (Most hobbyists have the best of intentions, but a life!)
:
: It's not ab ig, but it is fiddly and I have no idea how to find
: someone who can do it.
:
: What is it?
:
: Sword hilts.
:
: IF you go to http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/swords.htm you'll see the
: top end of what we want, but supposing we wanted 10 of
: http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/2post.htm
: Then how would we go about finding someone who could do it?
:
: The exchange rate is a killer, we can't buy them from the US, so we
: are hoping to find a local firm who can do small runs for us. We
: realise it won't be cheap, but we still suspect it will be cheaper
: than importing.
:
: (We'd handle the wooden bit your hand wraps around ourselves, it's the
: metal we want.)
:
: How shuold I go about looking for a firm who could do such things?
: Lots of places advertise "no job too small" but do they mean it? What
: kind of place would do it, any idea what yellow pages category to try?
: Where do such people hang out, how to track them down?
:
: We have a physical item they could look at, so they'd not have to work
: from photos.
:
: But only of course if the versions we have are something that's easy
: to make... What makes something easy? Am I right in assuming that the
: fewer curved bars the better?
:
: ZJ:
: --


I replied

> Try rec.knives or bladefourms.com
> There are quite a few enthusiasts (knife knuts) from AU that frequent
> both groups. I'm sure they know, or know of, custom knife and or sword
> makers there.
> Good luck. :-)

This is his reply to me;

: OK, I'll give it a go.
:
: Not too hopeful about that source though, because such guys are
: usually slow and expensive
:
: Not to mention reliable! I've had so many *bad* experiences from
: custom makers of knives and armour that I would be very wary about
: dealing with them. A commercial concern has a better handle on
: delivery dates I feel.
:
: ZJ

This is such a shame.
I hear from so many Knife Knuts that custom knife makers they have dealt with are angry, rude, short tempered, and in general very caustic to deal with. I just don't understand this kind of attitude.
I like my customers, and not because they are buying something from me. They are usually interested in the same things I am, knives being the primary interest. Their enthusiasm is infectious when looking at or handling a new acquisition or an associates new knife.
They call me and go on and on about a knife I've just sent them. I get such a thrill that someone else enjoys what I've done, as much as I enjoyed making it.
It makes me wonder why they are into knife making if the result for them ends up making them so abrasive. I know I love doing what I'm doing. To me, nothing could be finer than just loosing yourself for hours and sometimes days doing something you really love.

--
Paul-R

 
I am sorry that your friend, ZJ, had so many "bad experiences" with custom makers. On the other hand, I have had some wonderful experiences with custom makers -- among them Jerry Hossom, Bruce Evans, Madpoet, Ray Kirk, Pat and Wes Crawford. I have very professional services from others. I have some slow reply from others and that was the worse of it.

I think custom makers are folks like me and others. You run into good and bad but my experience with the latter has been minimal.

sing
AKTI #A00356
 
Not to slam any particular group, but I wonder if he's talking mostly about the Ren Fair crowd. In my personal experience (and I've known a few) they tend to be a somewhat odder bunch than us regular old vanilla knife nuts.
 
All of the custom makers I have dealt with or known, have been great people, who were willing to work with me in any way. Guys like Kit Carson, Lightfoot, Mike Franklin are a few that come to mind, and I know I left a few out from way back, but sometimes, it's the attitude the customer portrays that may bring on an "attitude" in another person.
 
Without exception the custom makers I've dealt with are friendly and open. The only complaint I've ever had is lack of communication regarding delayed making time, and that's only been in a couple isolated instances. For the most part doing business with custom makers has been a true pleasure for me.
-Paul
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Paul-R:
I seem to be hearing this more and more, a sad commentary on the people in my profession. A little long, and if I'm in the wrong forum hopefully the moderator will let me know and or move it.
I recently replied to a post in a machinist oriented Usenet news group looking for someone to make sword handles for him. This is his posts and my replies;

: ZJ (I changed the address) > wrote in message
:
: I have a weird requirement, and I think it will have to be done
: commerically, or if by a hobbyist, one who can be relied on to do the
: work. (Most hobbyists have the best of intentions, but a life!)
:
: It's not ab ig, but it is fiddly and I have no idea how to find
: someone who can do it.
:
: What is it?
:
: Sword hilts.
:
: IF you go to http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/swords.htm you'll see the
: top end of what we want, but supposing we wanted 10 of
: http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/2post.htm
: Then how would we go about finding someone who could do it?
:
: The exchange rate is a killer, we can't buy them from the US, so we
: are hoping to find a local firm who can do small runs for us. We
: realise it won't be cheap, but we still suspect it will be cheaper
: than importing.
:
: (We'd handle the wooden bit your hand wraps around ourselves, it's the
: metal we want.)
:
: How shuold I go about looking for a firm who could do such things?
: Lots of places advertise "no job too small" but do they mean it? What
: kind of place would do it, any idea what yellow pages category to try?
: Where do such people hang out, how to track them down?
:
: We have a physical item they could look at, so they'd not have to work
: from photos.
:
: But only of course if the versions we have are something that's easy
: to make... What makes something easy? Am I right in assuming that the
: fewer curved bars the better?
:
: ZJ:
: --


I replied

> Try rec.knives or bladefourms.com
> There are quite a few enthusiasts (knife knuts) from AU that frequent
> both groups. I'm sure they know, or know of, custom knife and or sword
> makers there.
> Good luck. :-)

This is his reply to me;

: OK, I'll give it a go.
:
: Not too hopeful about that source though, because such guys are
: usually slow and expensive
:
: Not to mention reliable! I've had so many *bad* experiences from
: custom makers of knives and armour that I would be very wary about
: dealing with them. A commercial concern has a better handle on
: delivery dates I feel.
:
: ZJ

This is such a shame.
I hear from so many Knife Knuts that custom knife makers they have dealt with are angry, rude, short tempered, and in general very caustic to deal with. I just don't understand this kind of attitude.
I like my customers, and not because they are buying something from me. They are usually interested in the same things I am, knives being the primary interest. Their enthusiasm is infectious when looking at or handling a new acquisition or an associates new knife.
They call me and go on and on about a knife I've just sent them. I get such a thrill that someone else enjoys what I've done, as much as I enjoyed making it.
It makes me wonder why they are into knife making if the result for them ends up making them so abrasive. I know I love doing what I'm doing. To me, nothing could be finer than just loosing yourself for hours and sometimes days doing something you really love.

--
Paul-R

</font>

 
You know, all the custom makers I've met also have been great guys, but I haven't met many. Friendly, concerned, attentive to any problem one of their customers may have, BUT, in the last year, I've heard this I know 15 - 20 times from new customers. Matter of fact here is the start of an email I received on 9-18-00;

------begin paste-----
: Dear Mr. Reynolds,
: I am goin aginst my grain and asking if you can make me a bowie knife to my drawing. I use
: big knives all the time and the ones I buy in stores dull and break to quick. I want my knife to
: look different to. I had 2 knives made and both times I swore I never do it again. It takes forever
: costs a bunch and I get something not even close to what I want then they tell me thats what it
: ended up like. I waited one year and paid 300 dolors for my skinner and if I skin a deer I have
: to sharpne it with each cut I make. When I complained to the maker it dulls to fast he said I
: made it that way so it dont break and he hung up on me now I cant get hold of him at all. I use
: a Frost skinner from Wall Mart now, it works beter. I want a big knife though and I want it to look
: like my drawing can you make it how long will it take how much will it cost. If the drawing is
: stupid and you dont want to make it thats ok I know I dont know much about knives I use them
: thou.
------end paste-----

I made his Bowie, a shape reminiscent of very old bowies, he loved it and still does. Through the whole process he was so afraid I would take offense at questions and start each one with "I know I'm probably stupid for asking this, but" or "please don't take offence but can this" ect.

After he received his bowie I talked him into sending me that skinner, it tested 44-Rc and was supposed to be ATS-34. Fit and finish were great obviously a craftsman's work let alone the mark I and everyone else who saw it would recognize. I know everyone can make a mistake so I called the knife owner and told him to call the maker and tell him it's soft. Within an hour I got two calls, the first from the maker at the top of his lungs;
"KEEP YOUR G__ DAM__ NOSE OUT OF MY FU__ING BUSINESS OR I'LL CRAM THAT G__ DAM__ KNIFE UP YOUR MUT___ FU__ING A__!" and hung up. I have it recorded in the memo portion of my answering machine.
The second call was from the owner he just said the maker was angry and he didn't want to bother him any more about this knife. I disassembled the knife, re heat treated it, removed the makers name, reassembled it and left it blank as far as a makers mark.
It's funny you know, here is a professional guide in the Great Western Basin of the US. He liked what I did so much with his bowie he had me make another skinner and a lockback to match it. I have gotten 8 knife orders from his customers to date and it's only been 3 months since he got his bowie. Don't get me wrong, it's great I've gotten this guides business, I just hate hearing things like this about a knife maker. It truly saddens me, which was the whole point of my post in the first place.

Paul-R
 
I have never experienced this.

Every maker I have contacted directly by phone or email has been polite, friendly, personable, willing to answer questions and provide info, opinions, and recomendations to increase my knowledge of knives.

I will not try to list all of them, but they are all well known top makers.

The same is also true for a couple of dealers; namely Les Robertson and Jay Sadow.

And come to think of it, a couple of guys at MT and Spyderco.

Many people over the years from newbie to now.

Great guy's, who's opinion I respect, and people whom I trust.

Regards,
Ron
 
Speaking as a maker I have ran into 1 other maker who was rude and unreasonable. This I credit to a long day at a show with too many "experts" telling him what he was doing wrong. The rest have been great people interested in their customers.

I have had one knife where the heat treat was not right. It was a D2 blade and quench was just not right. I had two other knives on order from this guy. So I replaced the knife for free and cut $50 off the cost of the rest for his trouble.

As a maker my job is to please the customer PERIOD! It is not my knife, it is their's. My opinion may be valuable to them, but it is also optional to them.

------------------
Mondt Custom Knives
For the Word of God is...sharper than any two edged sword.
 
I am sorry to hear this happened.As a knifemaker,it upsets me to hear that one of our brotherhood would treat a customer that way.I know it is hard to please everyone but if a customer is that unhappy with my work,I would simply give the man his money back.I also know why many knifemakers are giving up doing customer designed knives.I did one a while back that was a bear.It was a 12" recurve type blade with Zebrawood handles that I was trading for a Craftsmen bandsaw.It took at least 6 meetings and 6 templates to get the design.The sheath took another 4 meetings.Well, at least he was happy.The point being ,that I could have made 10 other knives of my design in that time frame.

Bottom line is that what you call businessmen that treat customers like that is hungry.Customers deserve the benifit of the doubt,becauseone unhappy customer can drive off 10 good customers.Dave
 
The most friendly knifemaker I have met is Cliff Parker, he explained exactly how he makes his damascus. A very nice person.
 
I've never purchased a custom before but I recently contacted Mr. Gary Bradburn. I explained where I lived, what I wanted the knife for, an approximate size, and I pointed out different features from each of his knives that I liked. I also told him my price limit. After 3 e-mails he had a design similar to an existing one, but fitting my requirements.

This is a great way to do things. I didn't want to have a completely new design, just one bigger than his normal ones and a combination of existing features that I knew he could do. He was very informative even to my very basic questions and offered friendly advice.

My blade should be completed in around a month, and I have no doubt that I will be totally satisfied with it. I'll probably order another one to have a matching set.
 
Hundreds of makers...one or two bad apples...I'd say those odds are pretty good. If I do not develop a rapport with a maker that I have an opportunity to chat with, I will not buy a knife from them. There are too many great makers with great personalities out there to worry about the BS. Any person that buys from a maker that won't guarantee their work (within reason) deserves what they get.



------------------
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
<A HREF="http://www.doggettcustomknives.com" TARGET=_blank>
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</A>
 
I think it's appropriate that we would see this thread posted at about the same time revmic mentioned in another thread how Larry Chew just gave him a folder this weekend at the Eugene Show on the promise that revmic would PayPal him the payment once he flew back home.

It's exactly the concerns like those raised by ZJ above (as related by Paul-R) that make me so appreciative of the invaluable resource that is Bladeforums. Everyday we end users are treated to hundreds of posts made by outstanding makers from every facet of the knifemaking industry. Before ever embarking on a custom project, we know going in which makers specialize in what types of knives, to say nothing of what we come to learn in terms of their personalities and business policies. I view this as just another opportunity to thank Mike and Spark for the time and energy they've devoted toward making BFC what it is today.

------------------
Semper Fi

-Bill
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by tom mayo:
I am compelled to ask:
What is this post here for?
and why?
??????????????????????????
</font>

Hello Tom,
Man have I gotten a LOT of flack in emails about this. I guess I should have just kept my mouth shut and not said anything. :-(

"What is it here for?"
I thought I was posting in a custom knife forum, frequented by knowledgeable makers and end users that collectively has the largest knowledge base I know of, about a concern I have. Am I in the wrong forum? Should I have posted it in a different forum, or at a different web site discussion group?

"and why?"
I don't like, and I've seen enough about you to KNOW you can't like, your profession being viewed by anyone, even if it's a few, as something that is shady and unconcerned with the customers and their problems. You can say there are a lot more customers than the few I've run across, which is very true, but how many have you run across? How many have other makers run across?

My IMPRESSION is that this seems to be on the rise, which is the disturbing aspect and the point.
If so, doesn't an increase in your profession being vilified disturb you, especially when it is people in your profession causing it?

I'll repeat my self and say, I guess I should have just kept my mouth shut and not said anything.
I've received emails accusing me of "dragging other makers down", "tooting my own horn", "standing on the shoulders of the good makers", "envious of others successes", to paraphrase a few of the more common parts of the herd of emails I've gotten.

That was so far from what I intended, it isn't even in the same universe that I live in.
I'm sorry so many took it so hard. Doesn't change the fact that it is a concern I have.

I absolutely did not drag someone/anyone else down, you will note I did NOT mention anything that could have remotely connected any makers to this problem. I won't drag someone else's NAME through the mud, the problems I'm seeing and hearing from customers and others, are causing, and will cause, those makers their own problems. I just hate being lumped in with them because I am in the same profession.

For those that see me as tooting my own horn. Let's see, about my overwhelming market presence, Magazine Advertisements, News Releases, Banners, Web Ads, Auctions, Web Hosting, Mass Marketing, literally thousands and thousands of instances of me "Tooting My Own Horn". Just look anywhere on the web and see me tooting my horn all over the place. Riiiiiight, I'm "tooting my own horn so much you can't go any where with out seeing my name. LOL
I seem to be able to make a comfortable living without the need for that.

Paul-R
 
I am not a custom knife maker, although I am planning to get into making knives in a more serious way. Thus far, some crude blades I cut out of crosscut saws are about the extent of my knifemaking endeavors. But I am a member of a much maligned, (and often with good reason) fraternity. I am a pastor.

And frankly, it makes me squirm when I hear about crackpots who bring reproach to an honorable calling by dishonest, unethical, and manipulative practices. When I meet people who feel compelled to tell me the latest "preacher joke," or rib me about "passing the plate," I have learned to just laugh like I think it's as funny as they do. But I consider it my responsibility to conduct myself in a manner that disproves some of the unfortunate stereotypes that have emerged in the last few years. Every time someone has an experience with a preacher who is not just after money and material gain, a blow is struck in the war against the kind of behavior that true men of God detest more than anyone else probably does.

My experiences with knifemakers have been positive. But it doesn't take many bad apples to give the whole barrel th appearance of being spoiled. If I were a custom knife maker, I believe I would attempt to send out as many positive vibes as possible to counteract he negative influnce exerted by a few.

In my opinion, the promotion of this concept is the reason this thread was posted.
 
OK......I will comment on my post... but it wont be two paragraphs....
If a knifemaker is rude.... if a knifemaker doesnt tell the truth.... if he takes money and screws people....HE WILL SOON BE OUT OF BUSINESS!!!!!!!!
end of story.

------------------
http://www.mayoknives.com
John 1:14
Love is Stronger than Death!
 
Every experience that I have had with custom makers has been a very positive one. At no time haas anyone been anything other than very helpful to me and patient with me. This is something I appreciate a lot and the reason that I have bought or ordered five custom knives in the last six months and the reason that I will buy more in the future.

------------------
Keith

AKTI Member #A001338
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by tom mayo:
OK......I will comment on my post... but it wont be two paragraphs....
If a knifemaker is rude.... if a knifemaker doesnt tell the truth.... if he takes money and screws people....HE WILL SOON BE OUT OF BUSINESS!!!!!!!!
end of story.
</font>

Tom: I hope that that is true. I have seen it take years and in only one case that I know of did it result in several years in the pen.

The forums may change this so that it becomes impossible for a crooked maker to swindle collectors year after year as they have in the past. Before this and a few other posts I have seen in the forums I thought that that kind of behavior had gone into history.

The vast majority of knifemakers are decent hardworking individuals, not very well organized perhaps, but really good people. They do not need to protect the makers who would send out a bad knife and then attack anyone who mentions it. Any one can have a bad day, anyone can make a bad knife. The solution is not to attack the person who points it out, the solution is to remake the knife or to apoligise for the actions of the bad day.

The wonderful thing about this business is the integratiy and decency of the people who choose to make knives for a living. After almost 40 years I would still rather be in this business than in ANY other. This has not been a happy thread but I feel it is better to let light shine on problems than to hide them. Everybody here knows how few bad apples there are in our business, they need to know when one surfaces.

Sorry about how wordy this got. A. G.
 
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