A shift in the paradigm?

[hhmoore]

<Rambling, wordy introduction removed>
Not too long ago, I decided it was time to up my game, so to speak.
I'd long eschewed CRK, Hinderer, Strider, etc for various reasons. CRK was mostly due to my (limited) experience with one 15 yrs, or so, ago. Hinderer mostly because they hit my radar with the ZT collaboration (I'd been under a rock for quite a while); and once I had the ZT versions, I didn't see the point. Strider was mainly aesthetics.
Eventually, though, I started feeling some curiosity about CRK. They were SOOOOO popular, and the people that had them seemed to consider them THE knives. Eventually, I bought one - and I didn't feel it. I reached out the the CRK forumites, and - on their recommendation - I purchased another - a large 21 insingo with micarta inlays. That done, I HAD to have a Hinderer. I was obsessing; but kept it at bay until I found a 3.5" XM-18 (in 20CV) at a great price. I purchased a replacement scale before the knife was even here (and have yet to remove it from the packaging). Strider....you know, they really aren't that bad looking; and, now that I'm really looking at them, I think that handle shape would be pretty comfortable. The steel choice seemed below the price point, though - which remained a deterrent.....oh - there's an SnG (CC) with XHP. Mine.
Somewhere in that whole process was Grayman - it seemed the Dua was being lauded as serious competition to the others...so I grabbed one of those, too.
So - I've got these knives rolling in over a period of about 6 weeks. I've spent more on other folders than I did for these, but not recently. The SnG was the last to arrive; which is good because it gave me some time to work through the kinks on the others. Yes - they all had some kinks, even at this price point.

Here are my basic impressions of these knives.
CRK 21 insingo (micarta) - I love the blade shape - it's a big part of the reason I made this jump. To me, the micarta inlays are an improvement over the standard 21 (thanks, again, to everybody that recommended them). The action was rather stiff; but I disassembled & lubed it - problem solved. Overall, I like the knife - more so than I've let on in other threads, actually - there's no denying the quality. I'll admit, I'm probably still harboring some 15 yr old prejudice toward CRK, and that may skew my reactions a bit; but - to me - the 21 just doesn't feel great in hand. It isn't uncomfortable - don't get me wrong - it just seems to lack something for me. I'm getting used to the feel of it, though. People say that it will grow on me the more I use it - I'm looking forward to it.
Grayman Dua - a rugged little knife - emphasis on "little". I prefer larger knives - the Dua is almost too small. That said - it's fairly comfortable in hand, despite what is basically a 3 finger grip (my pinky rests on the upslope of the handle butt). This knife hurt my thumb. There, I said it. It took a lot of pressure to get the blade moving (but once it started, it flew open to lock with a satisfying thunk), and after just a couple times, it hurt. In fact, it still hurt the next day when I pressed my forefinger against my thumb. Oddly enough, I could give the knife a firm shake & deploy the blade without the thumbstuds. I put a drop of FrogLube on each side of the pivot and worked it a bit. It still takes some pressure to move the blade; but it is a bit easier to get it started. I like it.
Hinderer XM-18 - this was a no brainer - I really like the ZT 0560 and 0550 (Hinderer collaborations); so I knew I was going to like the XM. I'd read the grumblings about the detent; so I was half expecting that to be a problem. When the knife got here, I was thrilled - and my heart sunk a little when I hit the flipper and the blade rolled about halfway open. Tried it again in a few different positions with the same result. Just a hint of wrist action made for consistent flips and lockups. As expected, it's easy to shake the blade open. It's easy enough to open with the thumbstuds, too - and, honestly, I sort of prefer thumbstud opening so I can control the deployment of the blade when I want/need to do so. A couple days after I received it, I noticed a faint creak during a failed flip...worked the blade back and forth a few times - yup, creaks. A little FrogLube for the Hinderer, too, then. The detent is on the soft side; but it flips consistently now. This is a definite keeper.
Strider SnG CC - interesting.... I really didn't know what to expect from this one. The handle is quite comfortable, somewhat less so when gripped forward to take advantage of the choil. Opens easily with the thumbstuds. There are several techniques for using the blade hole for opening; and they all work consistently (my thumb flick is sometimes off; but that's me, not the knife). There is a bit of lock stick; but that's common to Striders, and I don't view it as problematic at this point. I suspect that it will work itself out. This is another keeper.

Will I soon adopt an elitist attitude? Will I no longer appreciate "lesser" knives? Will I be able to carry, and use, these new knives? Or will I be too worried about the cost?
Only time will tell.........

 

[hhmoore]

 

[red mag]

Getting more experienced, more educated will change your point of view.
There are so many knives out there today, you have to distinuish between their characteristics.
Where does the design come from, what material is used, what about the quality it is build?
All this has it's price and you are free to decide it the price-performance-ratio satisfys your claims.
Many like a nice folder and sometimes i.e while doing dirty gardenwork a "lesser" knife will do.
Have fun.
red mag

 

[Lycosa]

This.^
I can EDC my Soddie or my Willumsen Tuco and be equally content.
rolf

 

[hhmoore]

For the record - the title, and the questions raised at the end, were intended to be considered lightheartedly.
It's not as if these are my first expensive knives - though, admittedly, my more expensive and/or custom folders were a number of years ago. (Which, when one actually thinks about it, makes an even bigger difference given the value of today's dollar and what things cost in relation.) Why is it somebody always points the finger at my experience and education when I comment about knives? The $400 dollar range isn't all that expensive these days, and there are numerous options at and above this price point. I've also been carrying knives for 40 yrs; so I'm not exactly a newcomer.
I had another paragraph and a half typed; but I have to leave for a meeting. Rather than post those thoughts unfinished, I opted to remove them for later.

 

[Lycosa]

$400. is a huge amount of money for most folk to drop on a knife.
We knuts are a very small percentage.
rolf

 

[VermontEdge]

I think I'm currently right in the middle of such a shift. I had been going through a fixed blade phase, and then more recently a ZT phase. Then I found myself in need of a change, so I sold a couple knives and, instead of spending everything on a CRK I bought a Sobuster, a PM2, a Manix 2 and a couple flashlights.

I've been really impressed by the Spydies, and at this point I think my paradigm has settled. Every time I go to purchase a Strider or a CRK (knives that I really, really want) I hesitate due to the cost. Honestly, at this point, I have a hard time imagining myself liking a knife more than I've been enjoying my PM2, but of course it's still new and the two of us are still in the honeymoon phase.

All that being said, I have a pretty strong inkling that my wife has bought be a Sebenza for my birthday so (hopefully) I'll have a better idea of where exactly my tastes are these days

 

[abcdef]

&#960;&#940;&#957;&#964;&#945; &#967;&#969;&#961;&#949;&#8150; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#959;&#8016;&#948;&#8050;&#957; &#956;&#941;&#957;&#949;&#953; - Everything changes and nothing stands still.

Heraclitus

 

[Braincandle]

<Rambling, wordy introduction removed>
Not too long ago, I decided it was time to up my game, so to speak.
I'd long eschewed CRK, Hinderer, Strider, etc for various reasons. CRK was mostly due to my (limited) experience with one 15 yrs, or so, ago. Hinderer mostly because they hit my radar with the ZT collaboration (I'd been under a rock for quite a while); and once I had the ZT versions, I didn't see the point. Strider was mainly aesthetics.
Eventually, though, I started feeling some curiosity about CRK. They were SOOOOO popular, and the people that had them seemed to consider them THE knives. Eventually, I bought one - and I didn't feel it. I reached out the the CRK forumites, and - on their recommendation - I purchased another - a large 21 insingo with micarta inlays. That done, I HAD to have a Hinderer. I was obsessing; but kept it at bay until I found a 3.5" XM-18 (in 20CV) at a great price. I purchased a replacement scale before the knife was even here (and have yet to remove it from the packaging). Strider....you know, they really aren't that bad looking; and, now that I'm really looking at them, I think that handle shape would be pretty comfortable. The steel choice seemed below the price point, though - which remained a deterrent.....oh - there's an SnG (CC) with XHP. Mine.
Somewhere in that whole process was Grayman - it seemed the Dua was being lauded as serious competition to the others...so I grabbed one of those, too.
So - I've got these knives rolling in over a period of about 6 weeks. I've spent more on other folders than I did for these, but not recently. The SnG was the last to arrive; which is good because it gave me some time to work through the kinks on the others. Yes - they all had some kinks, even at this price point.

Here are my basic impressions of these knives.
CRK 21 insingo (micarta) - I love the blade shape - it's a big part of the reason I made this jump. To me, the micarta inlays are an improvement over the standard 21 (thanks, again, to everybody that recommended them). The action was rather stiff; but I disassembled & lubed it - problem solved. Overall, I like the knife - more so than I've let on in other threads, actually - there's no denying the quality. I'll admit, I'm probably still harboring some 15 yr old prejudice toward CRK, and that may skew my reactions a bit; but - to me - the 21 just doesn't feel great in hand. It isn't uncomfortable - don't get me wrong - it just seems to lack something for me. I'm getting used to the feel of it, though. People say that it will grow on me the more I use it - I'm looking forward to it.
Grayman Dua - a rugged little knife - emphasis on "little". I prefer larger knives - the Dua is almost too small. That said - it's fairly comfortable in hand, despite what is basically a 3 finger grip (my pinky rests on the upslope of the handle butt). This knife hurt my thumb. There, I said it. It took a lot of pressure to get the blade moving (but once it started, it flew open to lock with a satisfying thunk), and after just a couple times, it hurt. In fact, it still hurt the next day when I pressed my forefinger against my thumb. Oddly enough, I could give the knife a firm shake & deploy the blade without the thumbstuds. I put a drop of FrogLube on each side of the pivot and worked it a bit. It still takes some pressure to move the blade; but it is a bit easier to get it started. I like it.
Hinderer XM-18 - this was a no brainer - I really like the ZT 0560 and 0550 (Hinderer collaborations); so I knew I was going to like the XM. I'd read the grumblings about the detent; so I was half expecting that to be a problem. When the knife got here, I was thrilled - and my heart sunk a little when I hit the flipper and the blade rolled about halfway open. Tried it again in a few different positions with the same result. Just a hint of wrist action made for consistent flips and lockups. As expected, it's easy to shake the blade open. It's easy enough to open with the thumbstuds, too - and, honestly, I sort of prefer thumbstud opening so I can control the deployment of the blade when I want/need to do so. A couple days after I received it, I noticed a faint creak during a failed flip...worked the blade back and forth a few times - yup, creaks. A little FrogLube for the Hinderer, too, then. The detent is on the soft side; but it flips consistently now. This is a definite keeper.
Strider SnG CC - interesting.... I really didn't know what to expect from this one. The handle is quite comfortable, somewhat less so when gripped forward to take advantage of the choil. Opens easily with the thumbstuds. There are several techniques for using the blade hole for opening; and they all work consistently (my thumb flick is sometimes off; but that's me, not the knife). There is a bit of lock stick; but that's common to Striders, and I don't view it as problematic at this point. I suspect that it will work itself out. This is another keeper.

Will I soon adopt an elitist attitude? Will I no longer appreciate "lesser" knives? Will I be able to carry, and use, these new knives? Or will I be too worried about the cost?
Only time will tell.........

Hey hhmoore, check out this video from a fellow BF member on how to get your xm18 perfectly centered and fly open like a rocket with no wrist, also how to open correctly.

Watch "Knife Care: Setting Up a Brand New Hinderer XM-18 to Flip Well" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/dt4eHpl8iug

And the detent is designed for 3 uses, gravity wrist flick, thumb-studs, and flipper.

 

[BluegrassBrian]

I've felt similarly about the CRKs, and the micarta Insingo would probably be my choice if I were to buy one. It came down to that and a Mehr mini K2 for me recently and I opted for the K2.
I'm loving it.

At $550 it was easily my most expensive knife and I have no qualms about using it. I've opened the door to the "over $250" category I'm afraid.

 

[hhmoore]

At $550 it was easily my most expensive knife and I have no qualms about using it. I've opened the door to the "over $250" category I'm afraid.

That's sort of what I was getting at...but, as mentioned, I've purchased more expensive folders in the past. (A $600+ custom, and an $800 William Henry - both circa 2002) The difference was that those were not intended to be regular use knives.

$400 is a lot of money in some aspects...but not so much in others. Today - in this area - it doesn't come close to covering a month's rent. Heck, I know a lot of people that pay more than that for their car payments. $400 is a lot for a knife...unless your talking to people that have a few knives for which they've paid over $1000 each.
I can answer the questions I posed at the end of that first post without hesitation:
No. I enjoy poking those people too much to become one of them.
No. In a thread yesterday I mentioned an old Kershaw that I still rediscover & carry periodically. It wouldn't rank very high on a quality scale - especially by today's standards - but it's one of the most comfortable in hand knives I've ever owned. When I went through and posted most of my old knives for sale, I stuck it in my pocket without even thinking about selling it. I'd probably be lucky to get $20 for it (okay, maybe $25); and I wouldn't sell it for $100. (I think I paid about $35 for it in the late '90s)
Yes. I absolutely plan on carrying the aforementioned group; though, realistically, I don't NEED to use my pocket knives all that often.
No. At this point, the cost isn't a consideration - they're here...I've already paid for them. The only one that might remain unused is the Grayman; and that's only because I may not keep it. I appreciate the overbuilt knife thing...but small and overbuilt doesn't make much sense to me (unless I want/need an overbuilt knife and don't have the space to use a real one - and that isn't a common situation in my world.

Braincandle,
Thanks for the link - I'll check it out. I've seen references to the proper way to open a Hinderer - maybe I did that wrong; because I found it difficult and uncomfortable. I'm quite seriously considering removing the flipper; but I don't make that decision for a while, yet.



Has the paradigm shifted? I guess that depends on whether the 0200 regains its established place in my pocket, lands in rotation, or takes a serious bump to pack duty (or worse - drawer patrol).

 

[K.O.D.]

It is a long, hard, and expensive road to find just what you like in a knife. I've had a Strider, Brian Tighe, and quite a few other higher end knives. Where I have found happiness is in the $200-$300 range semi-production knives. Namely my Southern Grind Spider Monkey and Three Sister Forge Beast. Higher end production knives have stopped interesting me. I have moved up now. Here is where I am at personally with my knives:

I am working on putting together a personalized full custom from Alan Davis
I will soon be selling off my three ZT's as I just don't use them and to fund the custom
I generally don't like thumbstuds with a few exceptions, the SG and TSF
I don't like assisted
I'm sick of polymer and Titanium. Carbon Fibre, Wood, or C-TEK handles for me from here on out.
No S30V period. End of convo.
Most of my folders were over $100, and that is the sweet spot for me.
No assisted. Just don't like the feeling, and the one I have (ZT 0770 CF which will be up on the exchange) doesn't work unassisted.
No frame locks. In the cold, metal handles, even one sided, just annoy me as my hands get cold very easily, even with gloves.

Scaling down my knives (further) is hard for me, but is necessary. Last year I went from 35 folding knives to 11 folders and four fixed. Now I will be going down to 8.
Quality over quantity is the key here.

 

[VermontEdge]

Scaling down my knives (further) is hard for me, but is necessary. Last year I went from 35 folding knives to 11 folders and four fixed. Now I will be going down to 8.
Quality over quantity is the key here.

^^^ Couldn't agree more. In selling off some of my knives lately I've ended buying more, but it still resulted in a smaller collection. However, those new knives are more specific and fine tuned to what I actually want and will use.

 

[BladeCommander]

I am going through this process now as well. I have some CRK's and like them a lot. I passed on Strider because I didn't like the looks. Tried an SNG and it wasn't for me. Now I am coming back to them for some reason and am wondering if they deserve a second chance. Hinderer prices are coming down a bit, so I was wondering if one of those were worth a shot. Maybe my collection will grow to include all three, but for now I am still working my way up.

Despite having 3 CRK's that I like a lot, I will find myself carrying a large variety of folders from some mainstream brands (BM, Spyderco, ZT). I will be working on thinning the herd here soon because after 6 months of not changing the collection much, I know what gets carried and what doesn't.

 

[Comeuppance]

I've had knives all over the price and quality spectrum, and I've never really found myself dead-set in a certain price range or level of knife-quality elitism.

My practical view of knives keeps me away from things that have a disproportionate cost:quality:materials ratio. I had a CF-inlaid large insingo for a while, but the sheer value of it made it seem ridiculous to use it. I now generally carry a Launch 1, Kershaw/Emerson 4KXL, and a Protech Godfather. All three are excellent quality and value in my eyes.

I've held Hinderers, and they're terrible flippers 4/5ths of the time. Striders are too clunky for me, and $400 will get you many perfectly adequate "overbuilt" knives. CRK has good quality, but, honestly, Reate and Kizer offer S35VN framelocks that are so close in build quality that I don't see a $300 price difference being easily justified.

I'm sorta back to where I was shortly after I began - carrying in the $40-$150 range more often than not. My ventures into pricier "premium" knives have not left me so impressed, but, rather, allowed me to appreciate the quality that is available in a much more reasonable price range.

I think the days of CRK/Hinderer/Strider being touted as "worth it" are numbered. Too many other manufacturers have stepped up their game to the point where you're really just paying for the name and the shape of the knife. Kizer, Zero Tolerance, Kershaw, Spyderco, Reate, and Protech can pump out incredible knives for 1/2 the cost and with just as good of a warranty and attention to detail. It's kinda sad that the ZT-Hinderer collabs are almost inarguably better knives than the Hinderer mid-techs that cost 2-3x as much. Heck, even Emerson can't compare to the fit, finish, and materials of the 0620 and 0630...

Mid-Techs and customs, in my eyes, are more about pride of ownership than quality or function. I'm not saying there's no reason to own one, but, rather, as a practical user, I could not justify choosing a CRK/Strider/Hinderer over a ZT or a Kizer knife. There just isn't a difference in quality or materials proportionate to the difference in price.

 

[CapitalizedLiving]

It is a long, hard, and expensive road to find just what you like in a knife.

This. If I had known this from day one I would have bought an Opinel and a Mora and moved on with life. Sadly, I had to buy more $400 knives than I can even remember before I got to the point where the $10 knife was actually appreciated. Sigh.

On the bright side, at least I got most of my money back. Besides, buying knives also taught me a lot about avoiding the cognitive traps of aversion to loss and the escalation of commitment. So I probably owe a lot more than I realize to my prior stupidity.

 

[Hackenslash]

I keep buying more knives, expecting the next knife to be the one that lets me never buy another knife.

Smarter people than me would call that the definition of insanity...

 

[K.O.D.]

Sometimes I really ought to listen to my wife. She had mentioned on several occasions that I really should scale down as there are only two or three I ever carry. The problem is, most of them (Spyderco's) are well loved/used and not really in condition to sell. What I mostly carry now are the SG Spider Monkey, which is by far my favorite knife I've owned, then the TSF Beast and Kizer Ki423.

The Southern Grind is the knife that has made me stop looking at other knives, except for the fact of wanting a commemorative custom as mentioned in my thread on it.

 

[supergnat]

This. If I had known this from day one I would have bought an Opinel and a Mora and moved on with life. Sadly, I had to buy more $400 knives than I can even remember before I got to the point where the $10 knife was actually appreciated. Sigh.

On the bright side, at least I got most of my money back. Besides, buying knives also taught me a lot about avoiding the cognitive traps of aversion to loss and the escalation of commitment. So I probably owe a lot more than I realize to my prior stupidity.

I'm just about to pull the trigger on an Opinel and a Mora. I'm not looking for perfect, but rather "good enough".

 

[uofaengr]

It is a long, hard, and expensive road to find just what you like in a knife. I've had a Strider, Brian Tighe, and quite a few other higher end knives. Where I have found happiness is in the $200-$300 range semi-production knives. Namely my Southern Grind Spider Monkey and Three Sister Forge Beast. Higher end production knives have stopped interesting me. I have moved up now. Here is where I am at personally with my knives:

I am working on putting together a personalized full custom from Alan Davis
I will soon be selling off my three ZT's as I just don't use them and to fund the custom
I generally don't like thumbstuds with a few exceptions, the SG and TSF
I don't like assisted
I'm sick of polymer and Titanium. Carbon Fibre, Wood, or C-TEK handles for me from here on out.
No S30V period. End of convo.
Most of my folders were over $100, and that is the sweet spot for me.
No assisted. Just don't like the feeling, and the one I have (ZT 0770 CF which will be up on the exchange) doesn't work unassisted.
No frame locks. In the cold, metal handles, even one sided, just annoy me as my hands get cold very easily, even with gloves.

Scaling down my knives (further) is hard for me, but is necessary. Last year I went from 35 folding knives to 11 folders and four fixed. Now I will be going down to 8.
Quality over quantity is the key here.

A lot of truth in this post. It's just typical in this hobby once you surpass the $300 mark for a knife, then you decide you must try every major brand at least up to the $500 mark and the sickness gets even worse. Some people love the journey, but I'm in fact relieved that I've finally come to the point I know what I like. I posted my struggles with this in another thread earlier this week which seemed to confuse some because it doesn't coincide with their collecting philosophy.

For me, (excluding my wedding gift William Henry) the only high end knife I care to have around will be my two or three Sebenzas. They're not any kind of grail, but they just do it for me at the price point. After I get my small micarta insingo that's gonna seal it though I might would like a Mnandi as an anniversary gift down the road. I can see myself possibly selling my small plain 21 because it won't get much use. Having a large plain clip and a small micarta insingo gives a lot of variety and covers a lot of bases in just those two knives. I still enjoy carrying my Spydercos and Benchmades because they're good, solid knives too and plain fun to use.

OP, these knives will either keep you satisfied until the next must have comes along, or over time you may decide you just like cheaper, simpler knives. Neither is wrong though.