A simple question...

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KEmSAT-Survival

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Simple question time!!



Would you rather have a backpack full of goodies of your choice (i.e. top notch knife, hi-tech toys, etc...) and a couple books ("Bushcraft" by Mors Kochanski, "98 degrees...", etc...) or a bunch of years worth of bushcraft/primitive living skills knowledge, a simple knife (fixed or folding), an ax, a two pound coffee can, and a one pound coffee can?

No combining the two. The situation is simple too, just pick one: Either for survival purposes, bushcraft purposes, or wilderness living purposes.
 
simple question,not really ,survival is when Bushcrafting or going outdoors goes bad....I am working towards the knowledge aspect...all the goodies & books will not save you if you do not understand them or practice what you preach...
 
Well, I'll be somewhat of a smart *ss here and say - Since I already have a ton of wilderness/outdoors/bushcraft experience, I'll choose the backpack full of whatever I want.

If I was relatively new to the "outoors", I would choose the knowledge. Without the knowledge the tools are useless.

I once stayed the night (unintentionally) in a Northern Michigan forest at the end of the firearms deer season (late November). There was 8-10" of snow on the ground, the actual temp at night was pretty darn close to single digits and a storm came in with winds gusting to 30 mph (putting the windchill below zero). My supplies on that wonderful 13 hour night - My rifle, the clothes on my back, a knife and a lighter. I won't lie and say it was no problem (It was miserable) but because I knew what to do it was "just" miserable and not life threatening.
 
Well ... not so simple.

Most will opt for the knife, the axe, and the coffee can(s), for reasons already given. And they're good reasons -- but we're making the assumption that the survival situation will allow you to build a shelter, find water, and use all the other skills you've learned.

But if you're in that situation with a broken leg, you'll be better off with a PLB and the specialized know-how of how-to-push-a-button, because you won't do well with building shelters, finding water, gathering firewood, and so on.

True survival story: a few years ago I shot photos for this magazine story. Man goes bow-hunting, at end of hunt unhooks safety harness and begins climbing down, when hand-hold gives way. He falls, breaking his pelvis and one arm (humerus).

He has not left word where he was going, left his cell phone at home, has no signalling equipment with which to call for help, no survival kit except his knife. He tries dragging his body along the ground; no go. He spends a November night lying in the woods in southern Ontario, sans fire or shelter. He has to piss in his clothes, because he can't move. Fortunately, it doesn't rain or snow -- this would likely have killed him. SAR finds him the following morning.

(The kicker on this story, although not relevant to the question here, is that he was about 1 km from home, and perhaps 300 m from a main road. So if anybody ever scoffs at you for carrying a survival kit....)

All the know-how in the world wouldn't have saved this guy if it had started to rain and blow overnight. He needed a space blanket, hand warmers, a cell phone, a signal whistle and a flashlight. He needed gear.
 
Zaner01 said:
Well ... not so simple.

Most will opt for the knife, the axe, and the coffee can(s), for reasons already given. And they're good reasons -- but we're making the assumption that the survival situation will allow you to build a shelter, find water, and use all the other skills you've learned.

But if you're in that situation with a broken leg, you'll be better off with a PLB and the specialized know-how of how-to-push-a-button, because you won't do well with building shelters, finding water, gathering firewood, and so on.

True survival story: a few years ago I shot photos for this magazine story. Man goes bow-hunting, at end of hunt unhooks safety harness and begins climbing down, when hand-hold gives way. He falls, breaking his pelvis and one arm (humerus).

He has not left word where he was going, left his cell phone at home, has no signalling equipment with which to call for help, no survival kit except his knife. He tries dragging his body along the ground; no go. He spends a November night lying in the woods in southern Ontario, sans fire or shelter. He has to piss in his clothes, because he can't move. Fortunately, it doesn't rain or snow -- this would likely have killed him. SAR finds him the following morning.

(The kicker on this story, although not relevant to the question here, is that he was about 1 km from home, and perhaps 300 m from a main road. So if anybody ever scoffs at you for carrying a survival kit....)

All the know-how in the world wouldn't have saved this guy if it had started to rain and blow overnight. He needed a space blanket, hand warmers, a cell phone, a signal whistle and a flashlight. He needed gear.
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From the way that reads, a goodie bag wouldn't have done him any good either...he'd have just left it at home. A space blanket and hand warmers won't keep you from freezing to death if you're lying on the cold ground, either--especially if it starts to rain and the wind kicks up. He needed a lot more than just gear.
Obviously there are some situations that will have everything working against you, like this one, and lots of times it takes a certified miracle to make it out alive. Sometimes they happen, sometimes people die in situations that could have been avoided completely.

Apparently God had his back, as he lived to tell his story...

What's rule #1, kiddies?

Answer: Always tell someone where you are going and how long you expect to be gone.


(the large fear of breaking limbs, and not those on the tree, is why I flat refuse to treestand hunt)





I will let you in on a secret though...the question isn't supposed to be simple. I was being....quasi-facetious....okay...sarcastic...alright, I give...a smartass...:)
 
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Ditto. I wish I knew enough to have the gear, but with my current level of experience I'll take the knowledge.
 
I love the toys and books (though I don't have any of those particular books) but knowledge and experience wins every time so I'd vote for the latter.
 
KEmSAT-Survival said:
From the way that reads, a goodie bag wouldn't have done him any good either...he'd have just left it at home.
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True.

It was interesting to talk to this guy. He could list all his mistakes -- he knew better, but we all get careless from time to time. Lesson #1, like you said, is the biggie here. His wife knew he was missing, but not where he'd gone.

KEmSAT-Survival said:
A space blanket and hand warmers won't keep you from freezing to death if you're lying on the cold ground, either--especially if it starts to rain and the wind kicks up.
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Yes, but the space blanket will keep the rain off and the handwarmers will provide a little warmth while you toot on your whistle and shine your flashlight around to guide in the rescuers you called on your cell phone. With the five items I listed -- providing the cell phone didn't get smashed in the fall, that is -- he could have come out of it whether it rained, blew, snowed, snew, or whatever. Rescue was less than one hour away.

Point being, like you said, it's not a simple question at all.

I think there are three survival "themes," meaning ways you get into that survival situation: lost, stranded, and hurt. Lost and stranded are the ones we think about most, and with good skills you start to think, maybe I don't need all this gear. Until you think about how you're going to do all that stuff when you're hurt.
 
experience and knowledge with the basic tools, no room for error's in the Canadian Northwest. I used to volunteer for search and rescue. Lots of people are found dead or in rough shape with the tools they needed right in their packs.

As soon as stress,injuries and/or 1st stage of hypothermia hits anything that you have just read or thought about will go right out the window. Practical repetition of the basic survival skills is essential to preparing for the worst, anyone can make a fire on a sunny day in a campsite full of seasoned wood.
Take your surv.kit and go for a dayhike in the rain, make fire with firesteel and tinder and set up a emerg. shelter with just what's in your kit. While doing this, put some thought to how this would go with injuries and extreme weather. Even better, try with one hand and some patience(you'll need it).
When I was an 8 year old kid following the Old Man on trapline, he would go down to a pond to retrieve and reset traps and tell me to build a fire. 4 feet of snow and it had better be built by the time he got back with water on the go for frozen hands. We were on snowshoes pulling sled's as most were frozen stiff and had to be thawed before skinning. Many times we were 2 to 4 hours from the truck. Three times due to white-outs we had to build a snow cave with all the fixin's because you'll die in the car in a prairie winter.
Family settled Northern Saskatchewan in 1872. My Grandpa and old man were an absolute wealth of frontier and indian lore, big shoes to follow.
 
Zaner>>

Very good points.

One should always examine the "what-if's" when they plan to go alone into the wilderness for any reason, whether it be 100 miles or 1 mile from home.

However, could he not have banged the flat of his knife between the two coffee cans for a bell effect? (metal on metal ringing is a very distinct, unnatural sound in a forest and is often easily heard...well atleast here, where I've done the experiment. I can't really speak for Canadian or other, denser forests.)

Certainly the flashlight would have been a big help, but say the batteries were dead because it somehow got switched on in his pocket and stayed that way all day; and his cellphone got trashed in the fall? The whistle of course, would probably still be usable, but with a pelvic injury, would he be able to take deep enough breaths to blow it loudly enough?



Brad>>
I learned all the wild plants and most of the other stuff I know from my grandparents. A lot of people don't realize that the older generations are a wealth of knowledge in themselves. The sad part is that once we lose that generation...all that knowledge will be gone.
That's what I like about KY, if you know how, it's simple to survive here. You have everything you need sitting right in front of you if you know where to look.
Sounds like your pop and grandpop were somethin' else.
 
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Personally I would take experience and know how....and a simple knife etc over the other 2...

That's a great story... I hunt but I am not safari Jim so don't copme after me if I got this wrong...but A. tree stands have the potential to be dangerous
B. Personally I feel that there is a common misconception that you need to be 50 feet up a trunk in order to hunt effectively from 1.I was taught and (again I'm not hunting everyday) that you can effectively hunt from 10 -15 feet depending on terrain.
What I can say with certainty is that while you might break a leg or an arm at a fall of 10-5 feet (which is awful, but will not render you unable to move like a pelvic fracture would) you will 99 out of a 100 times NOT break your pelvis (I'll never say never)....I've seen ALLOT of injuries in my day and a few broken pelvises... this is a seriously thick bit of bone designed to take a lifetime worth of abuse..You need to be really high up, or be really frail (ie medical disorder that effect bone density) or maybe morbidly obese in order for this to happen under normal circumstances..(but than again you could say Mr. Murphy doesn't like normal circumstances) I've seen people slip off a curb crack there head on the cement and die..so
so he didn't leave word
denied himself a simple kit
denied himself a means of communicating
didn't bring a buddy
etc. etc.
I could be mistaken but these are mistakes that an individual with real experience would be less likely to make..we have to remember..there are allot of guys out there that hunt..and that is the extent of there bush knowledge...(granted all of them could probably fill the pot better than me)
But that's just me YMMV
 
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texastonydobbs said:
simple question,not really ,survival is when Bushcrafting or going outdoors goes bad....I am working towards the knowledge aspect...all the goodies & books will not save you if you do not understand them or practice what you preach...
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I will agree 100% :thumbup:
How's it going Shawn ?
 
texastonydobbs said:
simple question,not really ,survival is when Bushcrafting or going outdoors goes bad....I am working towards the knowledge aspect...all the goodies & books will not save you if you do not understand them or practice what you preach...
Click to expand...

I agree. The books are a guide, you're supposed to get out there and teach yourself. The only thing the book will be good for in a survival situation will be as a starter for your fire.
 
“Well, I'll be somewhat of a smart *ss here and say - Since I already have a ton of wilderness/outdoors/bushcraft experience, I'll choose the backpack full of whatever I want.”

Snap.

..

I'll burn the guru books on day one. I get to keep my water filter, lightweight nest, stove, torches and all the other bits that are so useful. I get to keep rubber handled knives because they are a few steps beyond just getting wood from trees, and I guess vulcanizing could be deemed a bit techno. And so on.

On the flip side I don't get to eat from some manky old tin can, dry out wool, rub some kind of animal fat into my leaking and ineffectual leather boots, or debase myself with religion in the hope I can get a deity of some sort to stop the mozzies biting.

Nope. Less is more is right near the top of my stack of favourite clusterfuck expressions. It is a rather banal polymorphous concept indicating the bandier has difficulty understanding how to control variables.
 
I will take knowledge over gear anyday. Just look at ancient societies, they did not have high tech gear but survived fine.
 
RescueRiley said:
What I can say with certainty is that while you might break a leg or an arm at a fall of 10-5 feet (which is awful, but will not render you unable to move like a pelvic fracture would) you will 99 out of a 100 times NOT break your pelvis (I'll never say never)
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The tree stand wasn't that high, but this guy was in his 60s, bones maybe a bit more brittle. And I suppose he fell just right. (Or just wrong.)

Even just telling his wife specifically where he was hunting would have saved him the overnight stay on the forest floor. Not to drag this off topic, but the kicker on this story is that he was so close to home -- closer than a trip to the supermarket for many of us. With just the broken arm he could have walked home easily. So he got careless. Once again, if anyone ever questions why you carry a survival kit on a day hike....

To the OP, if I answer honestly, I think 95% of the time I'd take the knowledge. But there are situations where I'd trade it in for the right gizmo. Never say never. :)

But in real life, I'll take the knowledge and the gear. I'm not going to count on being able-bodied in an emergency.
 
coaldigger said:
I will agree 100% :thumbup:
How's it going Shawn ?
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Busy as a midget in an ass-pinching contest, brother.
Work, family, finishing the BA in Psych, all what time I'm trying to teach people how not to get dead in the woods in between.

I'm kind of on a hiatus from teaching WS right now, though. I'm sure people who've looked at the webpage are sick of seeing "to be scheduled (probably after hunting season)", but it's kind of hard to do anything else when I've comitted to teaching a pack of scouts when their leaders are ready, coordinating with the lady at Red Cross to teach for them and trying to decipher the mysteries of the human mind.
I'm probably going to take down the advertisement for the Hiker Survival 101 class, atleast until I get through with this next scout class (the HS101 class is a free class, anyway...so it's not like I'd be losing money...) and posting the reason why it's being postponed.

I think I need one more iron in the fire...know what I mean? :D

It's good, though, wouldn't have it any other way...

How's the coal business?



PS>> I'm also still going to try to get that get-together for Red River Gorge worked out, too...probably in June, maybe in the fall when it ain't so gawddamn hot (July-August is biznatch to try to get campgrounds at RRG). I'll post that about a month ahead of time, atleast 2 weeks ahead of time.
 
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