A Substitution for the BRK magnum fox river

[Masterninjakiller]

Hey everyone.
First post here and would like to say that I've been lurking on your forum for a couple of days now and I think its great!

The reason i have registered is specifically to get some feedback or advice on a problem i have come against in trying to decide on the purchase of a particular style knife.
Basically i have been trying to decide on a medium sized survival/allround EDC knife with the following properties.

Between 5 and 6 inches in length
Full Tang
High carbon blade
Scandi saber or convex grind preferably
good for beating on and dependablity not break when you need it most

I have been doing alot of research on this subject and i thought i had found the perfect knife in the BRK magnum fox river until i started doing research on the company and the Quality of its product.
In short I didnt like what i found. It was unfortunate because I fell in love with the profile of the magnum fox river but now don't have the faith in the company (or the money to gamble) to purchase one.

My question: Does anyone have any suggestions or recommendations as to another knife with a similar blade profile as the magnum fox river with a better reputation for quality with the specs detailed above?

Thanks for having me on the forums!

 

[Fancier]

Don't let the internet scare you so easily! Just about every manufacturer has been the recipient of web hate at one point or another.
If you really want a knife and want to make sure you have a good experience just buy from a reputable dealer with a good return policy.
Then if you don't like the knife you can get satisfaction. A lot of problems seem to happen through bargain prices and sellers that don't value customer satisfaction.
That said, I'd rather have a Dan Koster MUCK in 3V than a magnum fox river.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Koster MUCK is an excellent suggestion at a base price of $265 w/ sheath (pic from his website):

You might also try MLL Knives and just tell him what you're after (pic from website):

Also the Fletcher Delta Foxtrot (again, from maker's website):

Or any number of makers featured HERE

Those have something similar to the profile of the BRKT. Or you could peruse various other companies like the BF favorites - Fallkniven, Busse, Swamp Rat, Scrapyard, ESEE, Survive! Knives, etc. - or larger operations like Buck, Gerber, Kerhsaw, Benchmade, Spyderco, Becker/Kabar, all have something to offer in the size range, some with profiles similar to the BRKT. If you have the wherewithal, buy a couple that peak your interest, try them out, and sell if they fail to satisfy. There are plenty of options out there, so enjoy researching and exploring!

 

[Masterninjakiller]

Thanks for the feedback,
I have considered many of those companies. Ive been looking at the Fallkniven A1 and F1 though the F1 is a little short but is an excellent knife for smaller work in my opinion and and also i have been browsing Kukris Online, they have a very good selection of small full tang kukris on there that seem to made well and are very affordable.

But the front runner is the pathfinder scout made by Blind Horse Knives and sold by Dave Canterbury on his website, It fits all my requirements including the necessary blade profile.
Has anyone had any first hand experience with these knives? I am particularly interested in the pathfinder scout.

I was unaware of the MML knives! those are beautiful looking knives!

 

[ozgooner]

The problem with the internet is that it gives a platform to a very vocal minority. Who you don't hear from is the far greater majority who use and love their knives everyday without a hint of a problem.

My hunting buddy has a BRKT Fox River Magnum and it's his go-to blade for large game processing. It's a fantastic knife, holds a great edge and has superb ergos. We both have the standard Fox River for smaller game work and none of the three we own between us have ever even hinted at letting us down. For general bushcraft chores I carry a Bark River Aurora (I have two of them, they are that good), and it excels for general purpose camp/bushcraft work.

Don't let the haters get to you. Bark River make great knives and thousands of people use them daily without any dramas at all.

Other good options to look at that meet your specs include the ESEE-4, Becker BK 15/16/17, and the Fallkniven S1 which sits between the F1, which is outstanding in its own right, and A1 in size, and is an excellent piece of kit as well.

 

[Masterninjakiller]

Hey ozgooner.
I really appreciate your feedback and I understand exactly what you mean about the Internet but in my experience if there is a problem with a product you can be sure that very vocal minority will have something to say about it.

As a research tool I find the internet invaluable because as an online consumer I go for quality over budget every time. I firmly believe that if your going to buy something then I want that thing to last for as long as possible. I dont believe in this "disposable" culture we have today.

It becomes evident very quickly on the Internet when someone or something is found wanting because so many people are weighing and measuring all the time. It takes me a very minimal amount of research to uncover any flaws in a given product or company. this goes for any product. I find that the ease of which I uncover bad reviews are directly proportional to the quality

Believe me when I say I enjoyed browsing BRKs website but only after too little prodding on youtube and this forum and a few other places on the web did I lose heart with BRK for reasons that are common knowledge on this forum so I wont bring them up again in this thread.

I think I may go for an MLL Companion but not without a little more research.

 

[Fancier]

I don't want to rain on your parade, and not to cause trouble or make hard feelings, but I'd rather have a BRKT than a MLL, and I own both.
I see no advantages to O1, and even if you don't like stainless there are other alloys (like 3V) that in my opinion do the job better, especially if you care more about quality than cost.

 

[Masterninjakiller]

Hey fancier,
Thanks for your comment, no offence taken at all.
I try to always be open minded about everything until I have done the proper research and the fact of the matter is that I have heard too many negative things about BRK to trust them with my money. I have however (doing the same amount of research) heard no negatives about MLL. If you can direct me to any negative reviews toward MLL id be happy to look at them and you would be doing me a favour but I could not find any.

I am by no means an expert on metallurgy and don't pretend to be in fact if someone could tell me the difference between A2 and 01 steel I would appreciate it.

 

[MC Chan]

Do you have a mechanism for polling the silent majority?
For some reason this is a field with extremely polarizing viewpoints and large amounts of pile on effect.

 

[Mikael W]

Masterninjakiller

I'm sure You will be happy with the MLL knife, Blind Horse or any of the suggested models here!
Everyone sounds like a good advice!
Regarding the mentioned Fällkniven S1, I have that one made from the fulltang bladeblank.

It's also a great choice if You wish to go that route.

Regarding Bark River Knives, I use them quite often side by side with my Fällkniven models.
I think BR's have added a lot of fun to my collection and I don't hesitate in buying them.

The latest was ordered today, the Bark River Rouge Bowie.
A collegue ordered one from the recent batch and showed it to me.
I was impressed by the subtle improvements and now I'm waiting for my second Rouge.

Expensive?
Yes absolutely, but fun!


Regards
Mikael

 

[chiral.grolim]

I am by no means an expert on metallurgy and don't pretend to be in fact if someone could tell me the difference between A2 and 01 steel I would appreciate it.

I am not a metallurgist, but here is Crucible's chart on tool steels: http://www.crucible.com/eselector/prodbyapp/tooldie/t&dchemtbl.html

On paper, A2 is tougher & more wear resistant, but fewer makers use it. Busse used to use A2 but abandoned it in favor of INFI, 52100, & S7. A LOT more makers use O1 as a step up from 1095 steel - Blind Horse Knives, MLL, Fletcher, Fiddleback, Keffeler, Randall ... you'd have to ask them why, I honestly don't know. What I have read is that O1 is fairly forgiving, allowing makers to excel with it fairly easily, and also it is very fine-grained meaning it can take a very fine edge (< 1 micron) with relative ease and resists chipping. It is excellent for wood-working and general outdoor use. 52100 is considered a step up from O1, and Swamp Rat knives is said to get the best out of it via their heat-treatment, calling it SR101. CPM-3V offers higher wear resistance and toughness than O1 but at added price - it is a powder steel so costs more to generate, and that added wear resistance makes it harder to grind as well.

For a stainless alternative, MLL Knives offers N690, other makers have other steels to offer (e.g. 13C26).

Again, good luck with your search! The Busse offering that most closely matches the profile is the SAR5, they occasionally are available on the exchange (image taken from web):

 

[Masterninjakiller]

Guys I appreciate all of your input and want to thank you all for your opinions.

Mikael, the S1 looks like an amazing knife and I do love the fallkniven brand but i'm looking for something a little longer at least over 5" though i'd love to have one as a small bushcraft knife anyway.

Chiral.grolim, I have looked over that crucible chart and it does seem to point out that N690 is superior to 01 steel i'll have to research into N690 more thoroughly. the busse SAR5 looks like a very competent knife but I tend to stay away from flat grinds in my knives just as a personal preference.

MC Chan, I dont have any way to post a silent vote at least I dont think i do.

Does anyone have any more thoughts as to the properties pros or cons between 01 and N690? Its going to be a hard use knife

 

[Mikael W]

Mikael, the S1 looks like an amazing knife and I do love the fallkniven braniud but i'm looking for something a little longer at least over 5" though i'd love to have one as a small bushcraft knife anyway.


Does anyone have any more thoughts as to the properties pros or cons between 01 and N690? Its going to be a hard use knife

The S1 has 5,25" bladelenght.
Böhler N690 is said to be closer to VG-10.
O1 is a toolsteel in contrast to the more stainless N690.

I'm using O1 from Uddeholm and VG-10 from Takefu.
Both laminated with the outer laminates in softer steel than the core.
This gives increased toughness if bending sideways.

However, heat-treatment and edge-geometry are more important than the steel.
This means You will get a lot out of your knife, when these parameters are right, regardless if You choose N690 or O1.
The Q around those steels, are more if You want stainless or not.

Regards
Mikael

 

[gregorio]

Do you look at the exchange fixed blade section?

 

[Brommeland]

I've owned and used quite a few Blackjacks over the past 20 or so years (and more recently Bark Rivers - both made in the same place by the same folks) and to be frank have seriously abused more than a couple of them. I've never had a failure of any kind and they all cut like a laser.

I seldom make product recommendations, but will make an exception in this case. These are among the best production knives I've ever used in terms of cutting performance, edge retention and overall toughness. I cannot recommend them highly enough.

 

[Masterninjakiller]

Do you look at the exchange fixed blade section?

I haven't yet but I will. Thanks.

The S1 has 5,25" bladelenght.

It looked shorter. I thought the A1 was the model with the 5-6" blade my mistake.

Brommeland, Im glad your experience with BRK was a positive one and I hope you understand that I'm not here just to bash any knife companies or their products. Its an objective decision based on research.

Ok, heres my next question. Apart from the obvious rust protection, what dos stainless steel give you as opposed to non stainless or vice versa?

 

[Mikael W]

I thought the A1 was the model with the 5-6" blade

Ok, heres my next question. Apart from the obvious rust protection, what dos stainless steel give you as opposed to non stainless or vice versa?

Fällkniven has three 5" and three 6" models.
They also have a few left of the discontinued fulltang BS1 bladeblank.

Regarding stainless vs non-stainless, let's take the basic Mora model and compare the stainless Sandvik 12c27 at HRC 58 with the 1095 carbonsteel blade at HRC 60.
The carbonsteel hold an edge a little bit longer due to the higher hardness, but the 12c27 stays sharp long enough to be a good knifesteel.
The carbonsteel also has a little bit more of toughness, but again the 12c27 feels very close.

If You look at the modern powdersteel alloys, there's a differrent scenario and it's a lot more difficult to give an exact answer.
Stainless or non-stainless, IMO most new powdersteels, designed for cutting tools are great!
Again, without setting the cross-sectional edge-geometry right for the steel, heat-treatment and material being cut, no knife will perform as expected.


Regards
Mikael

OOps! I forgot about the Fällkniven Butcher models, the F3 and F4 5" & 6" bladelenght!

 

[Brommeland]

One other minor factor to consider: Carbon steels will often leave a metallic taste to fruits & veggies. Stainless steels usually do not. My general use knives are all carbon steels and I keep a smaller stainless blade for food prep....YMMV

 

[Big Mike]

Don't let the internet scare you so easily!

The problem with the internet is that it gives a platform to a very vocal minority. Who you don't hear from is the far greater majority who use and love their knives everyday without a hint of a problem.

Bark River sells over 30,000 knives a year to happy customers, don't let a few vocal opponents turn you off to trying their knives.

Most have personal axe to grind with the companies owner; BR knives are top notch, as is their warranty and SPA service.


You may want to check out the Gameskeeper II and the Bravo-1.5, both knives in the range you looking for.




Big Mike

 

[Masterninjakiller]

Thanks Mike for the comment,

To be brutally honest I am very unforgiving about bad reviews pertaining to any product or service. The simple fact is since I have started researching I have heard alot of negative things from many different sources about the quality of BRK. Bad QC and bad customer service being the main complaints, it is a shame because as i have said I appreciate the overall design of this companies knives and whether or not these negative claims are substantiated or even true is beside the point, the fact is they have been said.

People do not as a rule waste their time to start a whole forum dedicated to bashing one product or service without at least perceived due cause. and they definitely do not for the sake of one minor QC issue, the problem is usually a deal breaker.

If I were the owner of BRK I would go out of my way to make sure that there was physical proof on his end that every knife that left his factory floor was tested to be flawless and that if anyone did have a problem that at the end of dealing with said problem they would have nothing but good things to say, even if it involved taking a loss at the end of the day. Also I would make sure that no one had any cause to have an "axe to grind" with me

That is the last I have to say on the subject as I said before I am not here to slam anyone but if there wasn't a problem no one would have as many bad things to say as they do. And to the people who have had nothing but good experiences with BRK please do not take offence at this post as it is not meant to be taken as such.

Just an Impartial opinion based on what I have seen and heard.