A Winter Wander, Compasses & Tinders

mistwalker said:
Cool. What material is the case of the cadet made from? It looks like it should be lighter than the pocket transit. I did a search on the 8040G and couldn't find them in stock anywhere or on the Brunton website, so I guess it is discontinued. Yes the pocket transits are expensive, and I get that they are heavy. The cadet is the one that really has my eye, I would just like more information on them and a better look before I order one. Hard to tell much about them from the pics and info available on the net.
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The 8040G is discontinued. It is fairly large; in fact it is probably about the same size as the Cadet. I don't have a Cadet. I believe the catalog said they are 2.5oz with 2 degree azimith gradations or accurate to about 1 degree accuracy if you're good enough. I'm not. I think it would be a nice compass, but at around $100 there are so many other choices. It appears to be a hard plastic material. Back in my early geology days, the training compass was something that cost $10 and was all plastic and not so accurate. But good enough to learn the fundamentals with. The big thing about Brunton's was the inclinometer for taking measurements on rocks and so forth (strike & dip) and of course the precision. Not many have a use for such. In the old days, miners laid out their claims with a Brunton pocket transit.
 
SwiftDream said:
MistWalker I agree, altitude will have some to do with it so the jury is still out but it has had a good long run and looking real good so far. Here is mine, used it last week to triangulate my position and travel cross country to an objective. It is a full service compass and I have found it stellar so far. If it stays bubble free, I'll not look further. (and I really like that little Martin knife of yours)

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Cool, thanks for the info. I'm definitely ordering one of those next while it is still winter.


Liam Ryan said:
Wow, really like that knife.
Interesting swiss knives too, never heard of them.
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Me too. It's an interesting concept, and more comfortable in use than I initially expected when I saw how thin it was at the bolster I really enjoy using it. Quite comfortable in various holds. I hadn't heard of them until recently when Carsten sent those to me.


22-rimfire said:
The 8040G is discontinued. It is fairly large; in fact it is probably about the same size as the Cadet. I don't have a Cadet. I believe the catalog said they are 2.5oz with 2 degree azimith gradations or accurate to about 1 degree accuracy if you're good enough. I'm not. I think it would be a nice compass, but at around $100 there are so many other choices. It appears to be a hard plastic material. Back in my early geology days, the training compass was something that cost $10 and was all plastic and not so accurate. But good enough to learn the fundamentals with. The big thing about Brunton's was the inclinometer for taking measurements on rocks and so forth (strike & dip) and of course the precision. Not many have a use for such. In the old days, miners laid out their claims with a Brunton pocket transit.
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Thanks for the info. I may end up picking one up later to check out anyway, but I'm going to give the Sherpa a go first.
 
A compass is not nearly as important as good maps. You'll refer to a compass occasionally but a map often. Spend money on quality updated topo sheets first.

As an aside, I too have a degree in geology and used a Pocket Transit often. I also used the M2 (basically the same instrument) quite often in the Army. They are great tools; however, they are just too much tool for a backpacker so I'd never consent to carrying either the bulk or the weight that come with a pocket transit.
 
I agree "too much tool" for backpackers. I don't carry mine needless to say.

Added: Mistwalker, if you do pick up a Brunton Cadet, I would be very interested in your thoughts about it. I realize that in your case and buying and trying stuff out is part of your business.
 
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leghog said:
A compass is not nearly as important as good maps. You'll refer to a compass occasionally but a map often.
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I don't buy that line of thought. For some people that is certainly true but to me a compass is just as important and sometimes more important. I can mark my hidden camp with a compass all by itself. I can mark where I parked my vehicle, no map needed. I can mark important archaeological finds and pinpoint them closer than a map alone. In a confusing landscape a compass, even alone is indispensable for my use.

It really boils down to how you use a compass. If you get lost it might not get you out of a jamb unless you started using it at the beginning of your hike. Its like that couple who got lost in Big Bend a couple years ago. The area they hiked was minuscule on their map but if they had a compass, knew how to use it to triangulate their car at the beginning of their hike and wrote down that information in a small notebook, it would not have mattered if they had a map at all. They would not have been lost for 6 days almost dying and would have made it back perfectly fine on that first day.

I mark points with my compass as I go but that said, I carry three scales of maps for the 200 square miles of wilderness that I usually travel every week and at least one map of the other places we go and I have hundreds of maps.
 
SwiftDream said:
leghog said:
A compass is not nearly as important as good maps. You'll refer to a compass occasionally but a map often.
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I don't buy that line of thought.
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Perhaps you don't, but most do. A compass without a map is not that good of a tool (unless breaking brush at night in the dark).

When you are transiting from one point to another across anything but relatively flat terrain, you are better off navigating the terrain on a useable track than just dead reckoning from one point to the other across the terrain (think going around the mountain than over it or avoiding the cliff than walking to it then having to back track). A compass alone won't allow that, but a map alone will as well as allow you to determine your relative position relative to desired waypoints/positions. Determining your own position in relationship to desired way points and within the terrain between you and those waypoints requires maps. Why do you think maps are absolutely vital in orienteering? You won't perform well in any orienteering events without a map. With only a map you'll perform better than another with only a compass. Have both a map and a compass, you'll then refer to the map more than the compass once you've oriented yourself and your map to the terrain.
 
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leghog said:
Perhaps you don't, but most do. A compass without a map is not that good of a tool (unless breaking brush at night in the dark).

Determining your own position in relationship to desired way points and within the terrain between you and those waypoints requires maps.
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No it doesn't. Read my entire post again. You can make your own map of waypoints and know how to get to any of them as you go by using your compass alone. We do a lot of canyon country navigation where there are no trails of any kind. I'm not talking about walking a straight line. And yes, there is a lot more to navigation than a map or compass.
 
This assumes your compass is a gps and not a normal compass. I carry a compass often. I don't have "way points". I normally have a fairly good idea of the directions before I start off from the safety and security of a vehicle. If something later doesn't seem right, I can use a compass to point me in the right direction. Believe me, once you get twisted up, you're confused and a compass really helps your perspective especially in a cloudy overcast day that you often have in the winter.
 
That makes sense .22 Rimfire. Here is how I use my compass part of the time. ( I use maps all the time too but this is something different than traveling to a point on a map)

I'm standing in camp and intend to traverse through a landscape that is cut with many canyons. If you are experienced in canyon country you will know that one wrong turn can take you far away from your camp on the way back in. Your camp is not visible until you get right upon it.

First you take two bearing 90 degrees apart while you are in camp. Your visible landmarks might not even be on your map and for this technique they don't need to be. Write down your bearing. Make a quick sketch of your landmarks in your little field notebook. If you get far away you can make other waypoints in this manner if it becomes important for any reason. Maybe there is just one place you can find a way through.

If you do that you can come from any direction back to those waypoints. I have walked up on hidden places in the landscape using that technique and I mean places in a sea of the same looking landscape that you could not see until you are withing 20 feet. It amazes those who have never done it. After that, they learn the technique for their own use.
 
22-rimfire said:
This assumes your compass is a gps and not a normal compass. I carry a compass often. I don't have "way points".
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Waypoints can be a mark or any reference point on a topo sheet. A hill top, a road junction, a saddle, etc. Waypoints predate GPS (and topo sheets even) and have been used in navigation for centuries.

Believe me, once you get twisted up, you're confused and a compass really helps your perspective especially in a cloudy overcast day that you often have in the winter.
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I was out in the mountains earlier this week where I had never before been. Basically in a cloud most of the day with several inches of snow covering everything. Referred to the compass at the beginning of the day. Didn't refer to it again. Didn't need to. Certainly kept an occassional eye on my map all the way out to ensure I knew where I was as compared to where I wanted to be and wanted to go.
 
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SwiftDream said:
No it doesn't. Read my entire post again. You can make your own map of waypoints and know how to get to any of them as you go by using your compass alone. We do a lot of canyon country navigation where there are no trails of any kind. I'm not talking about walking a straight line. And yes, there is a lot more to navigation than a map or compass.
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I stand by my points that people will refer to a topo sheet much more often than solely a compass and that a compass is most useful when accompanied by that map. That's after decades of using both and teaching both. Drop knowledgeable/skilled people off in the middle of wilderness in which they've never been and offer them either a topo sheet of the area or a compass. See which one they take.
 
leghog said:
Drop knowledgeable/skilled people off in the middle of wilderness in which they've never been and offer them either a topo sheet of the area or a compass. See which one they take.
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Depends on where you are dropping me. In the Everglades I'd take the compass :)
 
If I was dropped into the middle of juniper/pinion forest I'd probably use the compass more but would find the map invaluable too. We could go through these hypotheticals all day and night long but the fact remains that in practical application the compass by itself proves a very valuable tool. However I would not take the choice and will always be with both and use them to their fullest capability.
 
leghog said:
Waypoints can be a mark or any reference point on a topo sheet. A hill top, a road junction, a saddle, etc. Waypoints predate GPS (and topo sheets even) and have been used in navigation for centuries.

I was out in the mountains earlier this week where I had never before been. Basically in a cloud most of the day with several inches of snow covering everything. Referred to the compass at the beginning of the day. Didn't refer to it again. Didn't need to. Certainly kept an occasional eye on my map all the way out to ensure I knew where I was as compared to where I wanted to be and wanted to go.
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I would find a map much more useful around Mount Rogers since the trails are marked.

Yes to your way point comment. What good are way points on a map when you are completely twisted up in terms of directions? Topo maps commonly mark many features that could be used as reference points, but if you are truly lost, you really can't decipher one from another... A compass will provide you with basic information. Getting out may not be convenient or efficient using only a compass, but you'll get out unless of course you don't have water or are injured and it stretches into days.

As a kid we used to hunt a rolling wooded area that was 5 miles or so wide. Everything looked pretty much the same in a gross sense. No streams, normal high points, and so forth, but lots of logging roads going all kinds of directions. Pretty uninteresting kind of woods but lots of deer. It is a tough place to navigate and I got twisted up more than once there. Getting out was just a matter of time, but you might find yourself 10 miles from your car too. Of course back then, you just hitch hiked back and carrying a rifle was generally not a deterrent to someone picking you up.
 
22-rimfire said:
I would find a map much more useful around Mount Rogers since the trails are marked.
20 years in the Army, the trails weren't marked. There weren't even trails. Still referred to the map much more than the compass (again, unless breaking brush at night in the dark or in flat terrain).

Yes to your way point comment. What good are way points on a map when you are completely twisted up in terms of directions? Topo maps commonly mark many features that could be used as reference points, but if you are truly lost, you really can't decipher one from another...
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If you have a topo sheet of the area you are in and can't keep yourself oriented on it, you have much bigger problems than needing a compass. You desperately need some training and practice.

A compass will provide you with basic information.
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A compass will provide you direction and nothing else.

Getting out may not be convenient or efficient using only a compass, but you'll get out unless of course you don't have water or are injured and it stretches into days.
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You can to that without a compass too, you know.
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leghog said:
If you have a topo sheet of the area you are in and can't keep yourself oriented on it, you have much bigger problems than needing a compass. You desperately need some training and practice.
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As you might guess, I'm pretty comfortable with a topo map. It is the ridge lines that get you twisted. You follow what appears to be the ridge line that takes you in the direction you want, but somehow you shifted to what would be considered a minor ridge line going in another direction and don't realize it. Yes, you can figure this stuff out with a topo map and I always have.

Marked trails are useful, and if a map has a trail marked that you can identify as the one you're on, you pretty much have two choices of direction if you are twisted up same as finding a logging road. Most of my hiking these days are in places where the trails are marked and they provide the highway to get from here to there without looking at a map every 15-20 minutes. I'll branch off to explore and return to the trail. I however really enjoy taking a break, looking at a topo map, and the comfort of knowing exactly where I am. As you said, a compass only provides direction. Compass direction is useful only when you aren't sure or want "a second opinion". To date, I haven't needed a handheld gps unit. I am mostly referring to wooded areas where you often can't see very far.

Years ago, I used to keep a topo map with my annotations on it documenting what I considered interesting features. I did this so I could return and find them, perhaps the next year. I used to document locations of orchids in the woods as one type of feature that appealed to me and looking for such almost always required you to leave any kind of marked trail as you are looking for the micro environment mostly that would support their growth. A gps would be convenient for marking these "way points" for future reference and one of the few reasons I would even buy one these days unless I just wanted another toy (which is possible).
 
"The Ten Essentials" first appeared in Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills, first published in 1960 with latest edition in 2010. From that work --- "Always carry a detailed topographic map...Always carry a compass.".

1. Map
2. Compass
3. Sunglasses and sunscreen
4. Extra clothing
5. Headlamp/flashlight
6. First Aid
7. Fire Starter
8. Matches
9. Knife
10. Extra food
 
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