Yam, the point that you raise is one of some contention between knife people and SOME, not all, but some, law enforcement types who want to have all knives that may be opened with a flick banned. There was an effort in California to do so that was pushed by the county prosecuting attornies, as I understood it. It was beaten back and the basic difference between, say, a BM 940 and your gravity knife is that the 940 has a device attached to the blade to assist in one handed opening while the gravity blade depends upon the inertia or gravity for the opening. As I am not willing to get into pointless hassles with police and as I am not happy with blades opening in my pocket, I tend to keep the pivot screw on my knives that have adjustable pivots fairly snug and I would suggest that you might consider doing so.
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A Word of Warning Regarding Butterfly Knives
- Thread starter FullerH
- Start date
Brownie is right on the money on this one. The weapon laws extend to possession outside of the home. We can even take it one step further. If the weapon in question is in a sealed container and not readily accessible, then weapon laws still don't kick in.
I was reading some case law that was linked up here at BFC where a person with a folder was stopped and charged with possesion of a "gravity" knife. It was found that because the knife was in a pouch, it was not instantly accessible (able to be deployed with one move) and therefore not subject to weapon carry laws.
BTW, the gravity knife that the legislators were thinking about when they wrote that name in refers to a parachute knife where the blade drops out the front like a out the front auto, but without the spring. Of course, they conveniently added the part about any knife that can be opened with centrifugal force which does cover folders.
The balisong is by definition not a "gravity" knife as the blade does not slide out the front and driven by gravity and it is not a knife that opens with centrifugal force (more than one move typically).
In NYS, balisong knives are specifically named as a Class 5 misdemeanor, right next to ninja stars, nunchukus and other martial art weapons. They merit confiscation and destruction, nothing more.
I believe that one of the main motivations for outlawing philipino made balisong knives is because the can be manufactured very cheaply in vast quantities. Consequently, if any country allowed the importation of batangas balisong knives, the streets would be full.
Obviously the production of balisong knives on US soil is legal as there are many producers that are distributing them freely including Benchmade and Microtech in addition to the many custom makers.
In response to Brandc's dilemma, he needs to produce pictures and reciepts for the knives that were taken. Secure a lawyer to have a complaint filed for the illegal confiscation.
I was reading some case law that was linked up here at BFC where a person with a folder was stopped and charged with possesion of a "gravity" knife. It was found that because the knife was in a pouch, it was not instantly accessible (able to be deployed with one move) and therefore not subject to weapon carry laws.
BTW, the gravity knife that the legislators were thinking about when they wrote that name in refers to a parachute knife where the blade drops out the front like a out the front auto, but without the spring. Of course, they conveniently added the part about any knife that can be opened with centrifugal force which does cover folders.
The balisong is by definition not a "gravity" knife as the blade does not slide out the front and driven by gravity and it is not a knife that opens with centrifugal force (more than one move typically).
In NYS, balisong knives are specifically named as a Class 5 misdemeanor, right next to ninja stars, nunchukus and other martial art weapons. They merit confiscation and destruction, nothing more.
I believe that one of the main motivations for outlawing philipino made balisong knives is because the can be manufactured very cheaply in vast quantities. Consequently, if any country allowed the importation of batangas balisong knives, the streets would be full.
Obviously the production of balisong knives on US soil is legal as there are many producers that are distributing them freely including Benchmade and Microtech in addition to the many custom makers.
In response to Brandc's dilemma, he needs to produce pictures and reciepts for the knives that were taken. Secure a lawyer to have a complaint filed for the illegal confiscation.
Are you sure about this? I couldnt find any specific reference to balisong or butterfly knives in NYS law (although if they are double edged I suppose that they could be considered to be a dagger, dirk, stiletto, or dangerous knife).
BTW, there is some case law mentioned on Bernard Levines site that suggests that a balisong is NOT a gravity knife under NYS law.
Butterfly or "Balisong" knife, a folding knife with a split
handle, did not have blade released by force of gravity or
application of centrifugal force, and did not constitute a
"gravity knife"... (1987).
http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/ny.txt
- Frank
Hey y'all, I saw this and posted in the KnifeLaw thread, and have pasted it to this one... This is especially for Brownie and Sundsvall... (I'm one of the guys you sent your "Brownie Popping" info to!)
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Having just talked with one of the lawyers who represents the Northwest Arms Collectors Association, it all depends on the definition of "possess"... If it's illegal to possess, it's illegal to have accesible to the individual anywhere and to include your own home... In WA, as you saw in the RCW statute cited above - the operant term is "possess"... If your knife falls into the categories cited, it doesn't matter where the knife is, it is illegal to have it anywhere in the state of Washington. Now, it would be up to the attorney and the Court to argue the definition of "possess" and whether it can be argued that "private property" lends itself to the exception.
Now... all that being said... I only work for lawyers and a lot of my info comes straight from the Horse's mouth, so to speak, but it is still hallway talk until you read the results in the Court Reporter...
I'd have to say good luck to you Braundc... get a good lawyer and follow, immediately, what Wolfman said... which is exactly what my lawyer source said, too!
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Basically, the distinction a lot of us see is between possessing something in one's own domicile and possessing it out in public. RCW codes of WA don't make that distinction in RCW 9.41.250 - this statute defines a dangerous weapon and states that it is illegal to "possess" said "Dangerous Weapon"... It will be up to your lawyer and the court to figure this one out...
Now... all that being said, if you will re-read the part having to do with gravity and centrifugal force... well, every Benchmade I own, I've bought in WA and every one of them opens, in the store, with a flick of the wrist. As does just about every linerlock I've come across except those with the Cali ball-detente mechanism... I guess the Law can come after me, too?!?!
______________________________________________________________
Having just talked with one of the lawyers who represents the Northwest Arms Collectors Association, it all depends on the definition of "possess"... If it's illegal to possess, it's illegal to have accesible to the individual anywhere and to include your own home... In WA, as you saw in the RCW statute cited above - the operant term is "possess"... If your knife falls into the categories cited, it doesn't matter where the knife is, it is illegal to have it anywhere in the state of Washington. Now, it would be up to the attorney and the Court to argue the definition of "possess" and whether it can be argued that "private property" lends itself to the exception.
Now... all that being said... I only work for lawyers and a lot of my info comes straight from the Horse's mouth, so to speak, but it is still hallway talk until you read the results in the Court Reporter...
I'd have to say good luck to you Braundc... get a good lawyer and follow, immediately, what Wolfman said... which is exactly what my lawyer source said, too!
_____________________________________________________________________
Basically, the distinction a lot of us see is between possessing something in one's own domicile and possessing it out in public. RCW codes of WA don't make that distinction in RCW 9.41.250 - this statute defines a dangerous weapon and states that it is illegal to "possess" said "Dangerous Weapon"... It will be up to your lawyer and the court to figure this one out...
Now... all that being said, if you will re-read the part having to do with gravity and centrifugal force... well, every Benchmade I own, I've bought in WA and every one of them opens, in the store, with a flick of the wrist. As does just about every linerlock I've come across except those with the Cali ball-detente mechanism... I guess the Law can come after me, too?!?!
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,913
I think an aggressive DA who continued to prosecute for possesion in my home would have a fight on his hands as possession laws, for the most part, are for the public domain.
I would have him argue about some of the above examples I gave as references.
On another note, if it is not specifically mentioned as illegal to possess period, then the cited examples would have to be brought to bear on the courts to make the determination in my favor.
Once that was settled, I'd be after the DA and police officer who "stole" my property in excess of $250.00 which is felony theft in my state.
Brownie
I would have him argue about some of the above examples I gave as references.
On another note, if it is not specifically mentioned as illegal to possess period, then the cited examples would have to be brought to bear on the courts to make the determination in my favor.
Once that was settled, I'd be after the DA and police officer who "stole" my property in excess of $250.00 which is felony theft in my state.
Brownie
I am in NYS which is pretty liberal. So possession here means on your person while you are out and about WITHOUT a distinct legal reason for having it on you.
Thus a carpenter, construction worker, electrician, plumber, etc CAN carry a knife where the attributes and dimensions would otherwise violate the restricted weapons statute.
If you have a hunting or survival knife in your possesion and can show that you are returning from camping or other outing, the knife is legal to transport.
The laws in NYS are written loosely so that the police can make the call. So be nice to the police.
Thus a carpenter, construction worker, electrician, plumber, etc CAN carry a knife where the attributes and dimensions would otherwise violate the restricted weapons statute.
If you have a hunting or survival knife in your possesion and can show that you are returning from camping or other outing, the knife is legal to transport.
The laws in NYS are written loosely so that the police can make the call. So be nice to the police.
Brownie...
I feel the same way... but this is what lawyers do - argue the definitions of words. Unfortunatley, we, the citizens, can't really argue with the LEO that shows up to help us, and then targets us due to the open interpretation so many of us hold regarding "the Law"!
And because I have copies of the statutes for WA, I no longer carry any fixed blades, no matter how small, while I'm in Seattle (where I live and work.) But once I'm in the county, my folder is up to 3 3/4" and I can carry fixed if am in the process of doing something that justifies it's presence.. like hiking, camping or for work...
Otherwise, I can't afford the legal hassles...
I feel the same way... but this is what lawyers do - argue the definitions of words. Unfortunatley, we, the citizens, can't really argue with the LEO that shows up to help us, and then targets us due to the open interpretation so many of us hold regarding "the Law"!
And because I have copies of the statutes for WA, I no longer carry any fixed blades, no matter how small, while I'm in Seattle (where I live and work.) But once I'm in the county, my folder is up to 3 3/4" and I can carry fixed if am in the process of doing something that justifies it's presence.. like hiking, camping or for work...
Otherwise, I can't afford the legal hassles...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2000
- Messages
- 2,573
By "stiletto" do they mean an actual stiletto (a dagger like weapon with no edge) which can usually only be found in medieval weapons catalogs or do they mean the switchblade people call a stiletto? The two are very different.
Police get warrants to search peoples homes all the time for guns, often based on no more than a tip from an informer. Depending on how the knife law is written, why couldnt they do the same for other types of weapons?
BTW, The NYPD has been raiding stores that sell what are supposedly illegal knives under (get this) Operation Cutting Edge.
Police Raid Uncovers New York Knife Cache
............
ERIKA MARTINEZ
Courtesy of The New York Post
The owners and employees of five Queens shops were busted last night after police seized more than 350 illegal knives from their businesses.
The sweep, called Operation Cutting Edge, began with undercover cops buying knives from the stores about two weeks ago, Deputy Chief James Hall said.
Warrants were issued, and the stores were raided last night.
"I think as firearms become more difficult to obtain, we are now starting to see a trend toward the use of knives," Hall said. "It's a trend we plan to reverse."
Seized in the raids were knives ranging from $5 switchblades to $550 gravity knives.
Also found were exotic weapons like canes with swords concealed in their shafts, throwing stars, knuckle knives, nunchucks and a $400 belt knife, with a blade buckle.
Two women and one man were arrested in a Bayside shop, two other women were nabbed in Astoria.
Another shop in Astoria was searched, and a man arrested.
A Woodside store and a Flushing store were also raided, and a man was arrested at each.
All were charged with weapons possession, cops said.
http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?id=6877&siteSection=1
- Frank
BTW, The NYPD has been raiding stores that sell what are supposedly illegal knives under (get this) Operation Cutting Edge.
Police Raid Uncovers New York Knife Cache
............
ERIKA MARTINEZ
Courtesy of The New York Post
The owners and employees of five Queens shops were busted last night after police seized more than 350 illegal knives from their businesses.
The sweep, called Operation Cutting Edge, began with undercover cops buying knives from the stores about two weeks ago, Deputy Chief James Hall said.
Warrants were issued, and the stores were raided last night.
"I think as firearms become more difficult to obtain, we are now starting to see a trend toward the use of knives," Hall said. "It's a trend we plan to reverse."
Seized in the raids were knives ranging from $5 switchblades to $550 gravity knives.
Also found were exotic weapons like canes with swords concealed in their shafts, throwing stars, knuckle knives, nunchucks and a $400 belt knife, with a blade buckle.
Two women and one man were arrested in a Bayside shop, two other women were nabbed in Astoria.
Another shop in Astoria was searched, and a man arrested.
A Woodside store and a Flushing store were also raided, and a man was arrested at each.
All were charged with weapons possession, cops said.
http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?id=6877&siteSection=1
- Frank
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2003
- Messages
- 5,738
Sorry to hear about braundc's problems with the laws in WA regarding balisongs. Since I know very little of how the law there is interpreted by their courts, I will not comment on the issues of whether a balisong is considered a gravity knife there or how possession is defined there. On the other hand I feel compelled to refute some of the misinformation that has been presented in this thread regarding New York State laws.
First, balisong knives are, in general, legal to own and carry anywhere in NYS. The exceptions to this rule would be that balisongs with sharply pointed blades, blades over 4" long, or blades sharpened on both edges *could* be considered dangerous knives *if* you were found possessing one under certain circumstances, and that any balisong with a blade over 4" long that latches in the open position is illegal to possess in NYC. New York State case law has already ruled that balisongs are NOT considered gravity knives here.
Neither of the exceptions are based on the fact that the knives in question are balisongs. The first really just means that if you are caught possessing certain knives categorized as "dangerous" while committing another crime, you will have one more charge added to the list. If you are stopped by a LEO because you look like you might be planning to commit one, you have just give them reason to arrest you. The second exception is based on the fact that ANY locking knife with a blade over 4" is illegal to possess in NYC. Does any of this mean that you will never get arrested in NYS for possessing a gravity knife if you are found in possession of a balisong? NO it does not, it just means that if you were arrested any halfway decent lawyer could easily get the charges dropped or the case dismissed.
Regarding switchblades, gravity knives, ballistic knives and sword canes; these are illegal to own or otherwise possess everywhere in NYS. The exceptions to this rule are LEOs, active military personnel, and persons who have permanently lost the use of one hand. For average citizens here, case law on this issue is very clear, if you are found in possession of one of these instruments, you will be charged and, unless the police or the DA screw up badly, convicted.
Legal interpretations of the word "possess" may very well vary from state to state, but in NYS, if you have a prohibited article on your person you are in possession. If you are in a motor vehicle, home or apartment where one is discovered that is not on someone's person and no one else present admits to its ownership, every person in that vehicle, home or apartment can be considered to be in possession of it. Not much wiggle room there.
First, balisong knives are, in general, legal to own and carry anywhere in NYS. The exceptions to this rule would be that balisongs with sharply pointed blades, blades over 4" long, or blades sharpened on both edges *could* be considered dangerous knives *if* you were found possessing one under certain circumstances, and that any balisong with a blade over 4" long that latches in the open position is illegal to possess in NYC. New York State case law has already ruled that balisongs are NOT considered gravity knives here.
Neither of the exceptions are based on the fact that the knives in question are balisongs. The first really just means that if you are caught possessing certain knives categorized as "dangerous" while committing another crime, you will have one more charge added to the list. If you are stopped by a LEO because you look like you might be planning to commit one, you have just give them reason to arrest you. The second exception is based on the fact that ANY locking knife with a blade over 4" is illegal to possess in NYC. Does any of this mean that you will never get arrested in NYS for possessing a gravity knife if you are found in possession of a balisong? NO it does not, it just means that if you were arrested any halfway decent lawyer could easily get the charges dropped or the case dismissed.
Regarding switchblades, gravity knives, ballistic knives and sword canes; these are illegal to own or otherwise possess everywhere in NYS. The exceptions to this rule are LEOs, active military personnel, and persons who have permanently lost the use of one hand. For average citizens here, case law on this issue is very clear, if you are found in possession of one of these instruments, you will be charged and, unless the police or the DA screw up badly, convicted.
Legal interpretations of the word "possess" may very well vary from state to state, but in NYS, if you have a prohibited article on your person you are in possession. If you are in a motor vehicle, home or apartment where one is discovered that is not on someone's person and no one else present admits to its ownership, every person in that vehicle, home or apartment can be considered to be in possession of it. Not much wiggle room there.
Last time I checked, balisong knives of any length and configuration were illegal to carry in NYC. If it were legal, I would carry one. IMO, it is the strongest folding knife ever designed.
There is an escape clause that says that if your legal activity requires this implement, it ceases to be considered an illegal weapon. Thus if you are a construction worker and you have a 5" folding knife clipped to your pocket, the cops are not going to give you any trouble.
In addition, there is a concealment clause. Basically, if you are carrying a knife, it must be well concealed. If it is and you are stopped for no reason, they cannot legally confiscate the knife, because the illegal search produced the knife.
There is an escape clause that says that if your legal activity requires this implement, it ceases to be considered an illegal weapon. Thus if you are a construction worker and you have a 5" folding knife clipped to your pocket, the cops are not going to give you any trouble.
In addition, there is a concealment clause. Basically, if you are carrying a knife, it must be well concealed. If it is and you are stopped for no reason, they cannot legally confiscate the knife, because the illegal search produced the knife.