About fed up with my CPM-154 steel

Best source of M390 is Bohler distributor :)
But you need to buy as a company. ( In Poland they don;t want to sell for a typical customer >.> )
And probably half of a sheet :)
2,3mm / 4,3mm is available. ( I have now 4,3mm 65x45cm sheet mrrrrr... :) )

Edit: Nathat write this in the same time xD But M390 is from Bohler, not Uddeholm smelter.
 
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Yes, very different and the whole selling point for CPM steels (CPM154 vs 154CM). Basically the steel is not poured, it is sprayed, which brings about a more homogenous mixture and more evenly distributed carbides in the end product. That's it in ten words or less. There is a TON of write ups on CPM process...that's the Cliff Notes version.
 
Elmax is an excellent stainless steel. In my opinion, it has covers a wider range of use than any other stainless steel. If you heat treat it to the high 50's it has excellent toughness. When heat treated to HRC 62 Elmax out cuts CPM M4. Amazing versatility.

However, there is a downside for custom knifemakers. When Elmax (and M390) are HIP'ed, the powder is put into a 300 stainless steel can. After the HIP, the billet is rolled into sheet. The can remains on the outside of the sheet. This has caused problems for knifemakers who do not surface grind their steel. If the 300 stainless can is not removed, you can see a visible line where the can and Elmax meet. When rockwell testing, the hardness shown is the 300 stainless.

Carpenter had this same problem. When the problem was recognized, Carpenter pulled the steel and ground off the can from the sheet. Carpenter now removes the can after the HIP is run.

Bohler Uddeholm has know about this problem for a few years. They say they will not remove the can because no one has complained. We have complained for years. Two years ago we stopped stocking Elmax and M390. We told BU we would not stock the steel until they removed the can. We've explained to knifemakers why we stopped selling the steel and told knifemakers to express their concerns to BU.

This year at Blade show the BU representative stopped by our booth and said they had received many complaints regarding the HIP can. He said BU had received the message and would remove the can. Two weeks ago BU told us they changed their mind and will NOT remove the can.

If you like Elmax & M390 and don't like the HIP can, tell BU. If enough people complain, they might remove the can.

Chuck
 
Chuck, what do you recommend as an alternative? I really want to use some super stainless stuff.
 
Alpha Knife Supply said:
Elmax is an excellent stainless steel. In my opinion, it has covers a wider range of use than any other stainless steel. If you heat treat it to the high 50's it has excellent toughness. When heat treated to HRC 62 Elmax out cuts CPM M4. Amazing versatility...

However, there is a downside for custom knifemakers...
Click to expand...

RE: Elmax and M390 availability... it's profoundly unfortunate for us all that it doesn't sound like the situation is going to improve any time soon. :(

I echo Brian's query about other comparable steels that might be more available.
 
Brian.Evans said:
Chuck, what do you recommend as an alternative? I really want to use some super stainless stuff.
Click to expand...
Carpenter CTS-204P has the same composition and extremely fine powder as M390. CPM 20CV also has the same composition as M390 but with the coarse first generation PM powder.

Carpenter CTS-XHP is a good performer. I rate it a little below Elmax. I have no idea why Carpenter refers to it "corrosion resistant D2 tool steel". The composition is not even close to D2. I think this quote has hurt XHP sales.

I've talked to another steel company who is working on an alternative to M390. The projected date is around June 2015.

An older alternative is CPM S90V. I have several knives made from S90V. The edge holding is exceptional. Two CPM steels with better edge holde than S90V are S110V & S125V. Both steels are hard to find. All three steels are much harder to grind, finish and sharpen than M390 and its alternatives. I think this is a big reason why M390 is so popular.

If you want super stainless meaning extreme corrosion resistance try Z-FiNit. The edge holding is very good, edge stability is excellent and you can forge it.

Chuck
 
Alpha Knife Supply said:
Carpenter CTS-204P has the same composition and extremely fine powder as M390. CPM 20CV also has the same composition as M390 but with the coarse first generation PM powder.

Carpenter CTS-XHP is a good performer. I rate it a little below Elmax. I have no idea why Carpenter refers to it "corrosion resistant D2 tool steel". The composition is not even close to D2. I think this quote has hurt XHP sales.

I've talked to another steel company who is working on an alternative to M390. The projected date is around June 2015.

An older alternative is CPM S90V. I have several knives made from S90V. The edge holding is exceptional. Two CPM steels with better edge holde than S90V are S110V & S125V. Both steels are hard to find. All three steels are much harder to grind, finish and sharpen than M390 and its alternatives. I think this is a big reason why M390 is so popular.

If you want super stainless meaning extreme corrosion resistance try Z-FiNit. The edge holding is very good, edge stability is excellent and you can forge it.

Chuck
Click to expand...

Do you carry cts204 in thin stock? That's the kicker for me. Most people only have thick stainless, whereas I want thin. I'd love some in the .070" range for neckers.
 
I've never seen 204P in .070". We continually request .100" in 204P and XHP but have not seen this thickness.

Consider AEB-L for thin neck knives. I have a neck knife made by Michael Rader with a cord wrapped handle and .110 thick at the spine. It is an excellent utility knife.

Chuck
 
I am getting in on this thread rather late, but I'll give my experience with CPM 154CM steel. This year I have made around 70 blades out of that steel. The steel came from Aldo, and also Pop's. I have noticed small pits in the ricasso when I grind the blade, but with more sanding these go away. The pits seem to be on the surface of the steel, and do sand out. I have never noticed any pits in the bevels.
It sounds like other have had different experiences with this steel, but other than some small pits on the steel surface, I have not had any problem with it.
 
I use CPM 154 and usually leave the scale on the flats. I have never seen pits on bevels or edge period. The steel is a real good performer above 60 HRC and will hold its own with S30V.
 
I have been using CPM S35VN and am finding what I think are inclusions in almost every blade. I am using a bead/Aluminum oxide blast finish and after blasting and cleaning the blade these brown spots appear. They are 1/16" to 3/32", roundish, with ragged edges. What do you guys think they are?

On the subject of M390 and Elmax availability. I called Bohler Uddeholm in Kent, WA, last week. M390 24"x36"x.134 available late Nov. 24"x36"x .156 in stock for $1300. Elmax 24" x 36" x .142 in stock for $900. They won't do it but you can probably find someone to Blanchard grind for $200-250 per sheet. I'm looking for a bank to rob next week.

Tim
 
Tim could you give the name and number of the person you talked to at B/U in Kent? I tried dealing with the people in the Dallas office and they tried to rip me off.
 
tim37a said:
.... 24"x36"x .156 in stock for $1300.
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A sheet measuring .156" x 36" x 24 weighs 38.5 pounds. At $1,300 The price per pound is $33.77.

If you remove .010" from each side, the weight of the steel ground off is 4.9 pounds. The cost of the steel removed is $165. Add the $200 cost of the blanchard grinding. The new cost per pound is $44.64.

IMO, paying $365 to get steel ready to use is unacceptable. Bohler Uddeholm should be removing the HIP can at the factory. They should not expect their customers to pay for the machining and material removed. At the minimum they should not charge for the .020" that is being ground off.

Chuck
 
I agree, Chuck. Why don't you buy a Blanchard grinder and lots of 204P and grind it to usable thicknesses like .070, .10, and .125. We can take the last .010 off.

Darrin,
As I understand it, all knife making steel and activities are stocked and conducted by the office in Kent. The other branches apparently don't even know this.
Bohler Uddeholm 1-800-638-2520
7010 S. 188th St.
Kent, WA 98032
The people in Kent are very nice. Good luck

Tim
 
I'm getting to this conservation late, but a question here, someone mentioned Sandvik steels as been clean. I know there is a BIG difference in price, but just how much difference will be noted in end user of knife between Sandvik's 14C28N and something like Elmax, CPM154, or 204P? I've been using 14C28N, and really like it, but I do NOT have a basis for comparison.

Thanks for any input and knowledge,

Ken H>
 
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Ken H> said:
...just how much difference will be noted in end user of knife between Sandvik's 14C28N and something like Elmax, CPM154, or 204P?...
Click to expand...

14C28N will have almost no carbides in it, so it won't have anywhere near the pure wear-resistance of highly-alloyed steels like CPM-154, Elmax etc.
 
If you mean 14C28N will have almost no "large" carbides, you are correct. Sandvik is known for it's "fine, tiny" carbide micro-structure. I've been very impressed with ease of sharpening, and how well 14C28N holds an edge in kitchen knives. I just have no experience with any of the other steels - other than Admiral's 440C and there's no comparison there.

Just looking for input from some folks who've used both steels.

edit: I just found this thread that seems to have some decent info. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/757813-S30V-vs-Sandvik-14C28N/page3

From reading the thread, it seems on the question of 14C28N vs "high end" (VC30, CPM154, etc) the answer is "it depends". 14C28N will take a sharper edge (due to much smaller carbides), but VC30 will hold edge longer (due to high volume of larger carbides). Of course, like most things, it's mostly "opinions".

Ken H>
 
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