About khukuri steel

not2sharp

not2sharp

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Just what did the kamis use for steel in the days before there were surplus Mercedes leafsprings? Did they make their own steel from local ore, and if so what kind of steel was it? I would have expected to see some khukuries made from domascus/watered steel, since the process would have helped to transform iron ore into steel, but, we haven't seen many of these.


n2s
 
I don't think there was ever much steel made in Nepal. Before railroad rail and car and truck springs I think Nepal kamis got almost all their steel from India.
 
N2S from what little I know all indications lead to what Bro say.
I have also read that the Wootz steel had a very unforgiving temperature range when forgeing in order to get the watered steel patterns that comes out of it.

An interesting aside and really what I thought/think "Real Watered Steel" should look like is displayed in a Sword Ruel has.
The pattern, if one can call it that, looks just like large ripples in an otherwise still pool.
And the colors reflected are water like in their cool blue shades. The blade itself is steel colored grey like any well polished blade.
I wish I could have the sword to look at for a few years to see if I could figure out the pattern and what causes it.
It's NOT an Etched Pattern By Any Means!!!!!!!!!!
And maybe the sword *is* Wootz that's had a different forge temerature or something. All I can say for sure is that it is very puzzleing and mesmerising!!!!!!!
 
Well, if the kamis did get their steel from india in the ancient times, it is more than probable that they used wootz to make blades. Thats because for a long time wootz was the most common steel produced in India. And the range of wootz surface designs is HUGE. It ranges from web- or net-like structures to waves to very straight lined designs and from very fine to relatively large.

Achim
 
For most of the 19th and 20th century, it was common knowledge among those in the know that pattern welded edge weapons were an Oriental phenomenon. In the later half of the 20 century we found that this assumption was wrong. Xrays of many Eurpoean swords revealed a high incidence of swords with pattern welded blades. The patterns were hidden under the patina. Perhaps it's time to xray some of the older khukuries.

N2S
 
Originally posted by not2sharp
For most of the 19th and 20th century, it was common knowledge among those in the know that pattern welded edge weapons were an Oriental phenomenon. In the later half of the 20 century we found that this assumption was wrong. Xrays of many Eurpoean swords revealed a high incidence of swords with pattern welded blades. The patterns were hidden under the patina. Perhaps it's time to xray some of the older khukuries.

N2S
Click to expand...

Didn't the ancient Celts use some form of pattern-welding? I'll have to check my references, but I remember something like this. A lot of the references in Germanic sagas (like Beowulf) to 'magic' swords or 'giant's' swords are to the Celtic blades - the Celts knew how to make much better weapons than anyone else in Europe. That's a large part of the reason that in early Europe the 'Celtic empire' stretched from the present-day Slavic nations all the way to Gaul and the British Isles. Obviously, in more modern history, the Celts have been very much 'marginalised' - but in earlier times their weapon technology allowed them to dominate all of the other 'tribes' in Europe.

Bit off topic, I realise, but I was wondering if anyone knew/remembered bettern than I how the ancient Celtic blades were forged and whether or not it's anything like the pattern-welding of the khukuries?

cheers, Ben.
 
Didn't the ancient Celts use some form of pattern-welding?
Click to expand...

Yes, they are belived to have used a form of layered steel. See "The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England by H.R. Ellis Davidson (chapters 3 and 4).

n2s
 
Originally posted by not2sharp


Yes, they are belived to have used a form of layered steel. See "The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England by H.R. Ellis Davidson (chapters 3 and 4).

n2s
Click to expand...

thanks N2S:) :)

B.
 
A while back, when my HIKV was causing my brain to go on the fritz during finals, I found myself wondering the deepest darkest recesses of the library at school.

Upon awakening from my sleepwalking like trance, I found several essays on pattern-wielded blades hidden without these recesses...and how the secrets have died (supposedly) with the creation of firearms. The essays themselves were in tatters, and the pictures of the x-rayed blades were barely distinguishable.

Most of the writing was of chemical compositions and metallurgical nonsense. After the break I will go back and see what I can decipher.

I will attempt to get a few copies and see what I can share, with permission from the author, of course.
 
I think that some of you didn't get me right. What i was talking about when i said steel from India, was Wootz! This is NOT pattern welded steel. This is crucible melted steel, also called real damascus or crystalline damascus. Not only the process of making it is completely different from pattern welded steel, but so are the results.
Pattern welded is a heterogenous steel made by forge welding layers/strands/blocks of different alloy steels together. The carbon content of most old pattern welded steels is a maximum of about 1.1 %, normally ranging more or less in the 0.8 %.
Wootz is a homogenous crucible melted steel ingot. At least at the beginning of the process. During a lengthy and complicated heat treating and forging process it completely changes it's structure. Carbide crystals grow within the steel matrix. And at the end you have a heterogenous material which consists of a network of carbide crystal fibres or layers that are embedded in a medium carbon steel. The overall carbon content of most wootz steels is between 1.5 and 2 % C, which is at least twice as much as most common tool steels. Wootz was the first advanced material. Both plasticity, hardness, toughness and sound properties are beyond anything you can reach with common steels.

This is a wootz blade i made:

fe6039b8.jpg


Click here to get a full size picture:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/p35b18534e1afed69b44ef25c7b358405/fe6039b8.jpg.orig.jpg

or here for more wootz pictures:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4292498163

For more information, just do a search for "Wootz" on the web.

Achim
 
Originally posted by AchimW
Well, if the kamis did get their steel from india in the ancient times, it is more than probable that they used wootz to make blades. Thats because for a long time wootz was the most common steel produced in India. And the range of wootz surface designs is HUGE. It ranges from web- or net-like structures to waves to very straight lined designs and from very fine to relatively large.
Achim
Click to expand...

I've seen the picture at http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/pat05.html and AchimW's own Wootz-blade
fe6039b8.jpg
, but does wootz steel also have this sort of 'ripple'? AchimW's 1st message suggests otherwise 'ranges from web- or net-like structures to waves to very straight lined designs and from very fine to relatively large'...

Is there a general rule for distinguishing Wootz from other types of steel??? :confused:

thanks, B.
 
To really distinguish wootz steel from other steels and to be sure that it really is wootz, you either need to know how and from what it was made, or you need a metallographic research process.

Wootz steel is a non-pattern welded heterogenous steel with a relatively distinct layering.

By the process of pattern welding it is possible to produce heterogenous layered steels that optically look exactly like wootz, but are technically completely different. It is not possible to produce the same structure as wootz by pattern welding.

Why?

Well, the layers of pattern welded steels are made from just that, two or more different steels.

The structure of wootz consists not of two or more different steels. It is made from one solid block of ultra high carbon steel, which is heat treated in a very complicated and lengthy process to let the carbides fall out and concentrate along and around of traces of alloy metal impurities. After the process you end up with a matrix of low to medium carbon steel which supports layers of pure, extremely hard iron carbides. The structure technically has a very strong resemblance with today's modern composite materials like fibre reinforced polymers. That's why this steel is so special.

Achim
 
Forgot to tell something about the "ripples". What do you mean? I suppose you are talking about the surface relief in deeply etched (relief etched) pattern welded steel. Yopu won't see that in wootz steel, because the structures are too fine (thin) to do that. What you see is just an etching and maybe a patina to show the colour differences between the components.

Achim
 
Many thanks for the help Achim :). Still absorbing some of this information on wootz &/vs. pattern-welding.

Originally posted by AchimW
Forgot to tell something about the "ripples". What do you mean? I suppose you are talking about the surface relief in deeply etched (relief etched) pattern welded steel. Yopu won't see that in wootz steel, because the structures are too fine (thin) to do that. What you see is just an etching and maybe a patina to show the colour differences between the components.
Click to expand...

On the visual appearance: the piece I'm wondering about (a 18th or 19th century katar). I don't see anything like the ripples in the pattern-welded steel. The colour/hue is fairly uniform. I do see a lot of very fine lines...(etching?)...but perhaps that's from the forging or sharpening process.

thanks again, Ben.
 
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