About khukuri steel

Thanks again for the help Achim. I think I determined that the one old piece I have (katar) has a European blade on an Indian handle. But what about my 1800s khukuri? It doesn't really look much like your photo of Wootz steel (
fe6039b8.jpg
)....

But there is a 'cloudiness' I can't make go away despite a long time scrubbing at it with steel wool and Flitz metal polish:


19RA-15.jpg


Is that sort of 'pattern' at all consistent with Wootz? Or is it just oxidation I'm not getting rid of??? More photos @ 19th century Nepali Royal Arsenal khukuri

Thanks again, Ben.


Originally posted by not2sharp
Just what did the kamis use for steel in the days before there were surplus Mercedes leafsprings? Did they make their own steel from local ore, and if so what kind of steel was it? I would have expected to see some khukuries made from domascus/watered steel, since the process would have helped to transform iron ore into steel, but, we haven't seen many of these.
 
Beoram, the clouds i see on the picture you added are most likely some rusted spots you can't get rid of with the steel wool. ^
If i wanted to know what kind of steel it is, i would get some archer etchant (ferric chloride), make a 20 % solution (200 grams in 1 litre of distilled water) and etch the cleaned and degreased blade for about 10 seconds. If there are fine lines appearing on the surface of the steel, it is most likely Wootz steel. Wootz has very fine carbide lines. The colour difference between the lines and the matrix is not very strong. It may be more or less uniformly grey, if the surface is somewhat used or polished. And the surface is totally smooth. Do a search for wootz steel on the net. There are lots of photos of old blade from which you may get an idea of how it should look.

Achim
 
Originally posted by AchimW
Beoram, the clouds i see on the picture you added are most likely some rusted spots you can't get rid of with the steel wool. ^
If i wanted to know what kind of steel it is, i would get some archer etchant (ferric chloride), make a 20 % solution (200 grams in 1 litre of distilled water) and etch the cleaned and degreased blade for about 10 seconds. If there are fine lines appearing on the surface of the steel, it is most likely Wootz steel. Wootz has very fine carbide lines. The colour difference between the lines and the matrix is not very strong. It may be more or less uniformly grey, if the surface is somewhat used or polished. And the surface is totally smooth. Do a search for wootz steel on the net. There are lots of photos of old blade from which you may get an idea of how it should look.
Achim

Achim--thanks again for the info.

Is there any danger with using the etchant if the blade is not wootz? Or any general advice on etching?

thanks again, Ben.
 
Working with chemicals is never withour any danger. Read the safety precautions on the package. Still, working with ferric chloride is relatively safe as long as you don't drink it. A short 10 to 20 second etch would not affect the substance of the blade, just show you what's in the steel. You have to neutralize it with soap and water after the etch and treat it with some gun oil, but that's my routine on all steel blades anyway. If you don't like the resulting dark colour, it can be easily removed with some polish, steel wool, scotch brite or other medium of your choice.

Achim
 
Originally posted by AchimW

This is a wootz blade i made:

fe6039b8.jpg


Achim

Achim (& any one else) - where did you learn smithing techniques from? I imagine a number of those who do smithing have been professionally trained - but I was wondering if there were good books on smithing that anyone could recommend (not that I'm planning on starting up forging blades myself any time soon - mainly just interested to learn more about the process).

cheers, B.
 
Well, i am completely self taught. But i know some good books on bladesmithing. Books you should be able to find are

The Complete Bladesmith by Jim Hrisoulas
The Wonder of Knifemaking by Wayne Goddard
The Hand Forged Knife by Karl Schroen.

If interested in damascus steel you should look out for

Damaszener Stahl (Damascus Steel) by Manfred Sachse.

Achim
 
Thanks, Uncle.

But sometimes i can't get rid of the impression that i am a reborn bladesmith (which would fit your buddhist religion ideas very well, ain't it?) because a lot of things that seem so difficult to others are so easy to me.

:D

Achim
 
Achim -- you had mentioned a lengthy & complicated heat-treating & forging process earlier; is this something you could give us more details on? i am quite fascinated by Wootz; did a search on it last year; & found more on this thread than any of the sites i visited then! i had read thatit was "complicated" but i would be greatly interested in the process described in more detail than that, if possible. Thanks for the pictures: they are grand to behold.
True Art, True Science, melded as One.

Clif
 
THANK you, Achim!
Excellent on details.
If you sell your work, let me know: after all my reading, (for longer than i can remember, if you include libraries, pre-net days,) i've never actually put the stuff into my hands! Sure 'wootz' like to, tho ;) (small pun.)
MASTERLOUCKS@juno.com.
Respectfully Yours,
Clif
 
Originally posted by AchimW
Well, i am completely self taught. But i know some good books on bladesmithing. Books you should be able to find are

The Complete Bladesmith by Jim Hrisoulas
The Wonder of Knifemaking by Wayne Goddard
The Hand Forged Knife by Karl Schroen.

If interested in damascus steel you should look out for

Damaszener Stahl (Damascus Steel) by Manfred Sachse.

Achim

thanks again for the references. I actually found that my Anglo-Saxon reading has some interesting bits on both true & false damascus steel--the most excellent book:

Hilda Ellis Davidson. The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England. Woodbridge (Suffolk): The Boydell Press, 1962. (rev ed., 1994)

Davidson goes through some discussion of of 'damascus steel'. There's apparently also a third meaning of 'damascened', which is an ornamental effect produced by inlaying one or more metals.

An interesting quotation on the production of (true damascus) wootz and its early export to Europe:


The Romans imported their best steel from the East, not in the form of blades, but in cakes of steely iron (later known as wootz) manufactured in the Hyderabad region of India. The earliest known examples of this date from about the 6th century BC, and by the 1st c. AD Indian smiths were very skilled in its manipulation. It reached the Romans through Abyssinia, and was generally believed to come from China, as the real place of its origin seems to have been kept a trade secret. The Romans knew it as Seric Iron. Parthian steel, made in Persia by a somewhat similar method, was also highly valued and widely exported.
The Indian method was to heat black magnetite ore in the presence of carbon in a sealed clay crucible inside a charcoal furnance. An alternative to this was to smelt the ore first to give wrought iron, which was heated and hammered to free it from slag and broken up into small pieces, while the Persians generally used iron bars, heated with charcoal or plumbago. The carbon was obtained by the Indian smiths from bamboo and the leaves of certain plants, and the crucible was piled up with a number of others and heated in a furnance in a blast of air for about two-and-a-half hours. THe ore was reduced to iron, which then began to absorb carbon; when it had absorbed 3 or 4 per cent., the melting-point was lowered sufficiently for the iron to melt, just as the addition of salt lowers the melting-point of ice. The molten iron was heated and cooled again four or five times, and according to others was left in the furnance and allowed to cool down with it very slowly over a period of days. At the end of the process a round cake of metal was obtained, about 5 inches in diameter and 2 lb. in weight, sufficient for two sword-blades. Although with such a high carbon content one would expect the metal to be equivalent to cast iron, very hard and brittle, the slow cooling caused chemical and physical change to occur in the form of the carbon present, and it was possible to work the iron so as to produce weapons of excellent steely quality. The 'wootz' was usually marketed in circular form, or in short, stout bars.
Eastern steel was much valued by European smiths in Roman times. It was not easy to forge, but a skilled smith working with extreme care could avoid cracking in the initial forging process, since the brittle material was no longer in continuous planes of weakeness (as in cast iron) but dispersed in tiny dots. It was the working of this discontinuous material which produced the charateristic watered pattern running over the whole surface of damask sword-blades, giving the appearance of watered silk or moiré ribbon. As a result of forging, the material lost the tendency to crack and became tough and steely, and successful working produced weapons of extreme flexibility and great hardness, which would take a perfect cutting edge. Methods of working varied: one was by flowing the metal in two or more directions by hammer blows, followed by prolonged annealing and quenching, while another was to work the steel at dark red heat without quenching. The carbon content of good damascened blades was usually between 0.7 and 1.5 per cent., so there was evidently considerable loss of carbon during the forging process.
The pattern on the blade was brought out by polishing and etching, and this also necessitated long and careful work. A mineral called zag was used in solution, which Smith believse to have been a natural ferric sulphate.


There is also quite interesting discussion in this book of 'pattern-welding' (which appears to be somewhat of a misnomer). Though, Davidson doesn't say so and I'm sure 'pattern-welding' (coined by Herbert Maryon) is not going to be replaced--I think that a better term for this process is the one applied to a blade in Beowulf (ln. 1698): wyrmfah literally, "serpent-marked". 'Twist-welding' would seem a more apt description. Apparently the technique of 'pattern-welding' was lost until (Englishman) John Anstee successfully recreated it in the 1950s. Davidson's book even has an appendix by Anstee describing the process of 'pattern-welding'.

Oh, I see that Hrisoulas also has a book on 'pattern-welding', though from what I can make it (I didn't buy it), it's very much just 'how to do it'--what tools, &c.--so it doesn't look like an overly useful book unless one is really a smith planning on 'pattern-welding'.

cheers again, B.
 
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