about tempering

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Oct 1, 2013
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Hey guys, i'm fairly new to knifemaking and i recently heat treated a knife i was working on, 1084 steel, 3/16 thick. i put it in my homemade propane soup can forge, got it to a glowy red/orange color, stayed there for about 10 minutes and quenched it. where the problem is, i tempered it at 350F. i just read an article on smt.sandvik.com that said that if i wanted it to be tough enough to be a hard use knife, i should have tempered it at a higher temperature. now. can i just put it back in the forge and re-do the whole process or can i just put it back in the kitchen oven at 450? or is my blade fine as it is, it seems hardened, the file dont bite in it as much as before, i just dont know about it's brittleness. any suggestions/opinions?

thanks,

Marc
 
Leave it as it is.
350F is an optimum tempering temperature for simple steels with over 0,77carbon (hypereutectoid).
 
I would think it would be a tad brittle. 1084 is not a hypereutectoid steel, but rather at the division line, and even if it was, 350° is going to be some what brittle assuming it reached full hardness in the quench. Flintlock frizzens of 1095 are usually tempered at 375° to 400°, and they occasionally break. I don't believe a 350° temper would be an "optimum" temper for any hypereutectoid blade, unless it was an exclusive sliceing knife. 450° may be a little high, but depends on the blades intended use. You may try 400° and test it out. You can increase the temper if needed.
 
I won't elaborate on my thoughts about a soup can forge as a HT method, but suffice to say that there is a lot to be desired from your HT.

That said, if the blade hardened right, it needs to be tempered after the HT.
This is done by two tempering treatments in an oven ( kitchen oven is fine) at a temperature high enough to temper the brittle martensite. For 1084 steel the optimum is about 400F. Even at 450F a properly hardened 1084 blade will be around Rc60. 350F is a bit low, and the edge may be chippy. Bake the blade for two hours, take it out and cool off in water, then bake it a second two hours.

If the blade needs more tempering, or as in your case, the temp wasn't high enough, just do another temper at the desired temp. So, just toss it back in your oven at 400-450F for two more hours and you will be fine.


BTW, 1084 is the eutectoid, and does not need a long soak in the forge before quench. A few minutes is fine, but ten minutes is excessive, and with a very uncontrolled forge lke yours it can lead to severe overheating.
 
thanks everyone! i know soup can is not optimal, and now i know better about the soak time of an eutectoid steel. i'm gonna put it back in the oven and hope it will work (anyway it's just metal and time, and it's def. not my last!) and maybe someday i'll have a kiln?

thanks again,

Marc
 
Good. Let us know how the edge comes out when you test it.



Here is how many makers get an fairly good HT with minimal equipment and experience.

It all hinges on getting the best HT they can using as good a heat control and temperature measurement as possible. If a soup can forge and a magnet are all you have, so be it. 1084 is the steel you want to work with that equipment. Heat as evenly as possible, moving the blade in and out and turning the edge up and down continually. Whatever group of motions that heats the spine the most and allows the edge to not overheat is the one you want. Try and heat the knife evenly, but remember that the edge is what you want hardened the best. If the spine isn't quite hot enough, and the edge area is fully ready, ....don't wait for the spine and accidentally overheat the edge. When the blade near the edge stops being magnetic when touched to a magnet ( place the magnet right next to the forge), start watching the color of the steel. you want it about 100 degrees hotter than non-magnetic, which is about one shade brighter red. When the edge area is evenly at that color....QUENCH.....don't wait any more. Use a gallon of canola oil for the quenchant. Keep it in the quench tank for at least 30 seconds, moving up and down or in a slicing motion, but not side to side. Pull it out and wipe it off quickly, then sight down the blade from the tip, and again from the tang to check for warping. Minor straightening can be done with gloved hands or a slotted board while it is still hot, but stop all attempts when it cools to about 400F and gets stiffer. Once it hits 400F it starts converting to brittle martensite and will break if you attempt to bend or straighten it.

The temper is where we decide how hard we want to leave the knife, and where we change the brittle martensite into much tougher tempered martensite. It requires two baking cycles that are long enough for these changes to occur. Two hours each bake is about right. Try and use an oven with good temperature control. A kitchen oven that has been pre-heated for 30 minutes is a good choice. Toaster ovens are poor choices. The tempering needs to be at least 300F to keep the blade from breaking, but for most knives needs to be much higher to make the steel not still be brittle at the fine edge. Until you know what temperatures work best with your equipment and experience, it is best to test the edge and creep up on the perfect temper.

Do the first temper at 375F. Cool it off in water and clean off the blade a bit with the grinder or by hand with 220 grit sandpaper, and put a temporary edge on it at about 15 degrees per side. Make it fairly sharp, but don't wast time getting it scary sharp.
NOTE - A good magnifier or jewelers loupe is a good tool for examining the edge during testing and when sharpening.

Place a 1/4" brass rod down on the table and set the knife edge on it gently. Turn the knife so it is at about a 30 degree angle to the rod and push down gently to make the edge flex sideways. You should be able to see the edge flex a tad under the pressure. Press hard enough to make it flex noticeably, but don't get crazy. It should only take moderate pressure.
If the edge is too hard (which it may still be at a 375F temper) it will chip a bit at the flex. If it does not chip, lift up the knife and see if the edge flexes back or stays bent. If it didn't chip and flexes back ( a tiny bit of residual bend is OK, but the bend should be seen to return to mostly straight), the temper is just right. - do the second temper at the same 375F.
If it chipped, do the second temper at 400F and test again.
With each test that chips, raise the temper in 25F steps until it flexes without chipping. If it reaches 450F and still chips, something was wrong with the HT and it should be re-done. Most likely it stayed in too long and was too hot.
If the first test at 375F shows that the edge flexes and stays bent, the blade is too soft. The HT may have been wrong or some other problem may exist, but the HT will have to be re-done completely with more attention paid to getting the knife ton about 1475-1500F at quench.

When done testing the edge, dull it well and finish the blade as normal. REPEAT...DULL IT WELL...or you will get cut when finishing the blade.
 
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