Above the law, natural rights

T

TomW

Joined
Oct 7, 1998
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I've copied this from the law forum because the subject interests me
a lot and I'd like to hear some forumites ideas.

Are there any circumstances where you can see yourself putting your natural rights,let's call them that, above the law?
Here's an extreme example. In the state where I live they passed an assault rifle registration law. Thousands of the rifles the state figured were owned and would be registered were not registered.
This in essence made thousands of formerly law abiding citizens instant felons.
This left no provisions for amnesty. They cannot legally register them now.
To attempt it puts then at risk of being arrested and their lives ruined.
Could thewre be a time where knife laws progress and you could see yourself putting your NATURAL rights above the law?
Or do you believe there is no such thing as a natural right and the law is the law?
Keep in mind that it CAN happen. All it takes is a sweep of the pen and we're all felons.
 
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns- not all outlaws are bad guy's. I'll keep mine thanks.
 
Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Thousands of shooters had their sport ripped away from them in the UK a few years ago. The compensation was a shambles. The cost to the taxpayer was to be around £400M. How much does a hospital cost? How many people are refused treatments that could save their life because the drugs are too expensive. HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE DIED BECAUSE WE BANNED HANDGUNS?

This is just one example.
 
I believe in the right of self defense and defense of other people.

Weapons allow smaller weaker men to defend against stronger men and larger numbers.

As once said by some one very astute, "GOD create men, Colonel Colt made them equal."

Control of weapons that are reasonable for self defense in a civilized society (knives, handguns, rifles, shotguns, etc.)is people control. I cannot find any examples of people control being good for the people controlled but many examples of genocide preceded by banning self defense weapons.

I applaud those in California who did not register their assault rifles. If you are willing to stand together and display your rifles when the police come to take your neighbor away you will win. There aren't enough police, courts, or jails to hold the hundreds of thousands of "assault rifle" owners.

I took the easy way out. I refuse to live in a state that bans assault rifles or shall issue concealed carry permits.
 
First of all, I´m very pro-gun and I´m against banning firearms.
But I also don´t believe in anything called "natural rights".
The very idea of protected rights is anything but natural.

Allen.
 
Allen
You don't believe you're born with the right to defend yourself?
Do you believe the only rights you have are legislated to you?
Please clarify what you meant. I don't understand your statement
 
allen, I would see it as anything but natural to have someone tell me what i can or can not do. What's natural about a government directing your life?
 
Let me clarify: a "right" is a concept created by man.
Do you have the right to defend yourself from a pack of wolves?
Do the wolves have the right to fend off starvation by eating you?

If you have to fight for your life and you kill someone in the process, you only claim it was your "right to self defence" for legal purposes. In nature there is no need to justify your actions.
Rights are not natural.
A new-born infant only has those "rights" his parents are willing to give him.

Allen.
 
I believe that the framers of the constitution would have not only thought it right for you to ignore some laws but your duty to do so.
 
I will not argue that.
All I´m saying is that we should not confuse "rights" with "laws" with "nature".
Man created laws and the concept of rights, and the vast majority of these are at odds with what is natural.

A person may have the Constitutional Right to speak his mind, and there may be laws that enforce that right, but it´s natural to want to punch him in the mouth if he does.
See the difference?

Allen.
 
Allen, I see what you are saying about "natural". But the rights in the constitution are a different animal, they are inalienable. They are not granted by the government but protected from it.

Inalienable = not capable of being transfered to another. You can not give them up nor can someone take them from you.
 
Originally posted by allenC
I will not argue that.
All I´m saying is that we should not confuse "rights" with "laws" with "nature".
Man created laws and the concept of rights, and the vast majority of these are at odds with what is natural.

A person may have the Constitutional Right to speak his mind, and there may be laws that enforce that right, but it´s natural to want to punch him in the mouth if he does.
See the difference?

Allen.
Click to expand...
We're on the same page. :D
 
I believe I have a natural right to hope some mod moves this over to the political forum, where it belongs. :grumpy:
 
Originally posted by mnblade
I believe I have a natural right to hope some mod moves this over to the political forum, where it belongs. :grumpy:
Click to expand...
What difference does it make? And did you see who started the thread?
 
I don't have anything profound of my own to say, and I don't want to get bogged down in this stuff. But, here is a point to ponder from the first century B.C. by Marcus Tullius Cicero:

"There exists a law, not written down anywhere, but inborn in our hearts; a law which comes to us not by training or custom or reading but by derivation and absorption and adoption from nature itself; a law which has come to us not from theory but from practice, not by instruction but by natural intuition. I refer to the law which lays it down that, if our lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies, any and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right."
 
There is a concept of "natural law" which is sometimes invoked where the written law fails.

I agree that morality is subjective, but I suspect that altruistic behavior is something that has evolved to give us competitive advantage as a cooperative species, thus the general definition/concept of natural law or right is something that has evolved with us and is either genetically encoded or passed down from learning.

The written law is a map that we draw in order to make sense of the world around us. Nothing more, nothing less. The people who write laws are human and by implication fallible or even potentially corrupt. So if a law is unjust, it should be discarded. This is when the idea of natural law is useful, as a yardstick.

The problem with the law, and even democracy, in this day and age is that only an elite few are in a position to truly manipulate it, so we end up living in an oligarchy, whether we happen to be in the US, UK, or elsewhere. But the law is considered to be so powerful that it is almost beyond question.

The law has stopped being the map, the means to an end, and has become the end in itself. Useless (sometimes counterproductive) laws are introduced and politicians measure their acheivements by saying "We promised to ban guns, and we did" and conveniently forget to measure the impact of the laws on the real quality of peoples lives, which might paint a more honest picture.

Democracy, the way we have it, is pissing me off. You vote every few years, and then you have no influence. I feel disenfranchised.

At least you Yanks are more fortunate than us in that you have something tangible to shield yourselves from these Snakeoil peddlers, and there are still enough of you who care about your constitution to protect it.
 
One of the most awful parts of living under a tyrannical government has to be living from day to day not knowing when that knock on your door was going to happen and you are to be dragged away in the middle of the night.
Many of my friends and neighbors that didn't register those guns are living that scenario.
They filled out paperwokrk when they bought those guns. It's not like the state government cannot find them and drag them away.
Maybe they're just waiting until it becomes politically correct enough.
They took a very couragous stand.
Are we willing to take the same stand in regards to knives?
But of course that will never happen. Living with the fear of the knock on the door could never happen. It can't. Not here.
This the United States. We have rights. We're free. Right???
 
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