abs knives

marekz

marekz

Joined
Jun 16, 2008
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i done a bit of research and im still not clear: it seems to me that all the ABS knives seem to be hiiden tang knives. I have not forged before but Im quessing that when you forge you dont usually do a full tang? On most of the ABS knives i cant see the butt to see if there is a pommel nut, so is a epoxyed hiiden tang ,that goes 3/4 of the way through ,something thats exceptable? I love the knives ive seen -just a little confused on specifics. thanks marek
 
Depends, I'm in the ABS and I forge a lot of full tang blades. I do partial tang and hidden tang blades also.

There's a lot of design elements that just don't work with a full tang.
 
Marek, the ABS is an organization, not a type of knife. Members of the ABS make hidden
tang knives, full tang knives, through tang, stock removal and folders.

The hidden tang knives you speak of are perfactly acceptable, but most do and should have a pin through the handle.
 
Is he possibly talking about ABS J.S. and M.S test knives ? That all have stick tangs to them?
 
yes i was looking mainly at test knives and a few mastersmiths sights and found mainly stck tangs. marekz
 
Almost all ABS JS performance test knives are full tang. I know that Karl Anderson tested for JS with a take down hidden tang knife, but he is a bit on the crazy side...lol. The MS damascus performance test knife must be hidden tang construction. I make mostly hidden tang knives because they offer me more freedom as far as fittings go like guards, spacers, buttcaps, etc..
 
There's no reason that test knives have to be of any style (with the exception of the MS test dagger). Certainly a lot of ABS 'smiths do make primarily hidden tang knives, but that's not by any rule or even a strong convention, it's just the way that these folks like to make stuff. Personally I prefer making hidden-tang knives, but it's just that I enjoy the process of doing it more than full tang knives, and I haven't learned to make folders yet. :)

-d
 
I've heard a really strong rumor that's going around that of the 5 JS test knives, the judges will "allow" one of them to have a full-tang. ("...and, it'd better be tapered!") The remaining 4 "must" have a hidden tang.
- Just a rumor that's going around; "the undersigned has no independent knowledge of the aforementioned statement."
 
Troop said:
I've heard a really strong rumor that's going around that of the 5 JS test knives, the judges will "allow" one of them to have a full-tang. ("...and, it'd better be tapered!") The remaining 4 "must" have a hidden tang.
- Just a rumor that's going around; "the undersigned has no independent knowledge of the aforementioned statement."
Click to expand...
There was some griping about candidates submitting too many "guardless" knives a couple of years ago to avoid that particular "fit and finish" risk of failure, but I am not sure anything ever came of that other than the restrictions on the number of knives of the same style that you can submit for judging.
 
jdm61 said:
There was some griping about candidates submitting too many "guardless" knives a couple of years ago to avoid that particular "fit and finish" risk of failure, but I am not sure anything ever came of that other than the restrictions on the number of knives of the same style that you can submit for judging.
Click to expand...


I talked to several of the MS who are judges and they all advised me to "avoid" three piece knives. There's nothing wrong with a good three piece but it's not looked at as showing the skill they are wanting a JS applicant to have.
 
Concerning the test knives... the rules for the JS performance knife state the following:

TEST KNIFE SPECIFICATIONS:
- Overall Length of Knife: Maximum fifteen (15) inches.
- Blade Width: Maximum two (2) inches.
- Blade Length: Maximum ten (10) inches from point to the beginning of either the guard, bolster, or handle of the - blade.
- Handle Configuration: Any handle configuration is acceptable with or without guard, bolsters, ferrule, etc.
- Handle material is irrelevant and solely the choice of the applicant.
- Blade Material: The Journeyman Smith may test with any forged steel of his or her choice except Damascus.

The rules for the MS performance knife state:

TEST KNIFE SPECIFICATIONS:
Overall Length of Knife: Maximum fifteen (15) inches.
Blade Width: Maximum two (2) inches.
Blade Length: Maximum of ten (10) inches from point to the beginning of either the guard, bolster, or handle of the blade.
Handle Configuration:
The Master Smith applicant must test with a "stick tang" knife. Any handle configuration is acceptable with or without a guard, bolsters, ferrule, etc. Handle material is irrelevant and solely the choice of the applicant.
Blade Material:
Any pattern welded Damascus steel with more than 300 welded laminations. Combination of steels or pattern used in the billet is irrelevant. The Damascus may not be laminated to a central core steel piece, such as San Mai construction.

*NOTE:
The Master test knife must be forged with a "stick" or hidden tang handle. A full tang is not acceptable as a test knife. If a blade is loose in the handle, or in the judgment of the supervising Master Smith presents a risk, the knife may be refused for testing. This does not count as a failure to pass the test. The applicant may proceed with the test when any such handle looseness is corrected to the satisfaction of the supervising Master Smith

As you can see the MS performance test knife is required to be a "stick tang" otherwise known as a hidden tang. The reason for this is that more skill is required to create a hidden tang that will withstand the torture that the knife must endure. The reason this is not specified in the JS testing is that it is easier to create a full tang that will endure. Let me qualify that last statement.... commonly it is believed that a full tang knife is stronger than a hidden tang. No so. If a hidden tang is created correctly, it is ever bit as strong and durable as a full tang. In fact I have seen poorly made full tang knives that were not as durable as a properly made hidden tang. Along with this, once an individual understands/learns to create a hidden tang properly (for strength and durability), you realize a significant savings in steel by forging a hidden tang versus a full tang. I know I cringe when a customer asks me to create a Mosaic Damscus blade with a full tang....its just a terrible waste of steel.
 
Joe and Ed, that's another reason I did my test knife with, not only a hidden tang, but a take-down assembly as well.
I did it to prove -at least to me and Don Hanson - that the take-down assembly can handle any abuse it will see in its lifetime.
The freedoms in knifemaking are limitless and the ABS only has resrtictions as far as testing goes.
I'm glad Don pointed out "the ABS is an organization, not a type of knife."
If he didn't - I would have.
 
stephanfowler said:
I talked to several of the MS who are judges and they all advised me to "avoid" three piece knives. There's nothing wrong with a good three piece but it's not looked at as showing the skill they are wanting a JS applicant to have.
Click to expand...

After Dave Sylvester came back from passing his JS last year he told us that full tang knives were fine but that they really want to see bolsters on them.

Note that a full tang knife with bolsters is not a three piece knife. Also proper fitting and finishing of bolsters is on the same order of difficulty as hidden tang guards. (This last is my assumption -- I like to make hidden tang knives with guards or ferrules but have yet to successfully a finish a knife with bolsters.)
 
Yeah, I thought Karl was going to break my vise :D

About the rumors. While working on my MS knives, I called one of the judges after hearing a rumor (if the rumor was true, I wouldn't have pasted). He said ''bogus'' on the phone and reminded me after I passed, said none would have passed had the rumor be true. So like Troop said,"Just a rumor that's going around".
 
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