ABS Mastersmiths; On-going Testing?

[Kevin Jones]

Blade Show is about 6 weeks away and as many of you know the American Bladesmiths Society tests it’s applicants for both Journeyman and Mastersmiths (who have already passed their performance test) by ABS trained judges inspecting the five knives these knifemakers present to ultimately become certified and receive their stamps.

I would recommend that collectors and/or knifemakers who are attending Blade Show and have not done such to somewhat observe the process by meeting and talking to applicants and examining their knives. Most makers will be glad to share their experience with you.

As far as the testing goes, in my opinion the ABS does an excellent job in this testing and insuring the standards of quality of new applicant’s work meet or exceed what is widely considered the benchmarks of forged custom knives in the world today.

Having said the above, there has been a bit of discussion both on and off line regarding not all ABS mastersmiths creating knives to current MS standards. And possibly a need for re-testing and even re-certification for mastersmiths who don’t pass. Personally, I certainly don’t see this as a broad issue, though I do from time to time see mastersmith knives which I feel don’t deserve MS stamps.

I can see both positives and negatives regarding ongoing MS testing and possible recertification. If there were to be a re-testing process, I would suggest an abbreviated version as opposed to the current initial testing process. Perhaps mastersmiths having to re-test every 7 years and only having to submit one knife as opposed to five.

Even though I don’t know of and have heard nothing of the ABS addressing this subject, I think it could be productive to discuss the topic here where we can get a broad range of opinions out in the open.

Some questions for discussion:

• Do you agree with me in that the ABS is currently doing an excellent job in testing new applicants for JS and MS certification?

• Do you think the vast majority of existing mastersmiths are keeping up with ABS quality standards in the creation of their knives?

• Do you feel some form of re-testing should be implemented for mastersmiths?
• If so, what do you suggest the process should be? How and how often.

• Do you feel that existing mastersmiths have an obligation to maintain current ABS quality standards once he/she has passed their initial test?

I would like opinions/views from knifemakers (especially mastersmiths and ABS members) and collectors.
As always, thank you in advance for your participation.

 

[ptgdvc]

Some questions for discussion:

• Do you agree with me in that the ABS is currently doing an excellent job in testing new applicants for JS and MS certification?

Yes

• Do you think the vast majority of existing mastersmiths are keeping up with ABS quality standards in the creation of their knives?

A substantial majority are.

• Do you feel some form of re-testing should be implemented for mastersmiths?

No. The market place should be their on going report card.

• Do you feel that existing mastersmiths have an obligation to maintain current ABS quality standards once he/she has passed their initial test?

Yes, if they are using their stamp.

 

[A C Richards]

Some questions for discussion:

• Do you agree with me in that the ABS is currently doing an excellent job in testing new applicants for JS and MS certification?

Yes

• Do you think the vast majority of existing mastersmiths are keeping up with ABS quality standards in the creation of their knives?

A substantial majority are.

• Do you feel some form of re-testing should be implemented for mastersmiths?

No. The market place should be their on going report card.

• Do you feel that existing mastersmiths have an obligation to maintain current ABS quality standards once he/she has passed their initial test?

Yes, if they are using their stamp.

I agree with the above

 

[butcher_block]

for the most part imm good with the last poses abot how well theb ABS is keepig tabs

tho if you wanted to really make sure that all MS or JS knives were up to snuff you would need to do it liek a random drug test
draw the names then go to the sho and test what they have sitting for sale on the table. i know for sure if i ws told i had a test i woudl study for it (in this case spen a lot of time on one "test" knife) but really its all abotj the body of work that they are producing


edit to add i also dont mean jsutfor the blade show any show that maker might happen to be selling at

 

[SharpByCoop]

Kevin's post addresses older certified ABS makers as staying within current guidelines/standards of F&F and style. I'll steer clear of this. You guys have covered it OK.

What was mentioned years ago, was an optional 'Beyond Mastersmith' degree, which would reward exceptional workmanship, innovation, or styling. Probably emphasis on innovation. (F&F is covered at current levels well, and styling is subjective. But, they are inclusions.)

Rodrigo Sfreddo's integrals are certainly an example of the higher degree of mastery. Bruce Bump's pistol/knives as well. There are more. You get the idea....

Coop

 

[peterinct]

Thought provoking idea Kevin, there are many logistical factors that come into play if the "re-testing" idea should be considered.

I would also agree with the answers given so far and concur that the market will sort things out eventually.

I like the idea of another level such as what Coop described.

Peter

 

[fast14riot]

Kevin's post addresses older certified ABS makers as staying within current guidelines/standards of F&F and style. I'll steer clear of this. You guys have covered it OK.

What was mentioned years ago, was an optional 'Beyond Mastersmith' degree, which would reward exceptional workmanship, innovation, or styling. Probably emphasis on innovation. (F&F is covered at current levels well, and styling is subjective. But, they are inclusions.)

Rodrigo Sfreddo's integrals are certainly an example of the higher degree of mastery. Bruce Bump's pistol/knives as well. There are more. You get the idea....

Coop

Coop - that is very interesting, sort of like different degrees of black belt in martial arts. Evryone knows that if you have a black belt you can whoop some butt, but an 8th degree against a 1st degree might be a onesided fight. I think a higher degree of recognition is called for in the examples you have named, and I am sure there are others. Currently it seems like once you are a MS, the only thing higher is the Hall of Fame.


-Xander

 

[Kohai999]

Double hit, see below, sorry

 

[Kohai999]

Some questions for discussion:

• Do you agree with me in that the ABS is currently doing an excellent job in testing new applicants for JS and MS certification?

I do think that the current testing has gotten more difficult, and that the JS and MS applicants who get their stamps earn them.

• Do you think the vast majority of existing mastersmiths are keeping up with ABS quality standards in the creation of their knives?

Vast majority? Yes....however, I have personally witnessed MS makers at the Expo with serious damascus flaws, and overall slop in attention to detail....that is alarming.

• Do you feel some form of re-testing should be implemented for mastersmiths?

I feel that an OPTIONAL peer review for Mastersmiths with some sort of pin or patch awarded for continuous standards of Mastery would be a good idea, and should be embraced.

• If so, what do you suggest the process should be? How and how often.

Should be regular 3-5 years, optional, and recognized....there should be peer pressure to do this, as the best will. Reviewers should either be The Board, or designated Representatives.

• Do you feel that existing mastersmiths have an obligation to maintain current ABS quality standards once he/she has passed their initial test?

I do, and for the most part, feel that the MS's do a very good job of representing the best in the forged blade.

Coop - that is very interesting, sort of like different degrees of black belt in martial arts. Evryone knows that if you have a black belt you can whoop some butt, but an 8th degree against a 1st degree might be a onesided fight. I think a higher degree of recognition is called for in the examples you have named, and I am sure there are others. Currently it seems like once you are a MS, the only thing higher is the Hall of Fame.-Xander

Might be....one thing that is certain PAST 5th degree black belt, and maybe even for 5th is that there are a LOT of politics involved, and that might just be the Sword of Damocles in this case as well, with a Super MS category.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Kevin Jones]

What was mentioned years ago, was an optional 'Beyond Mastersmith' degree, which would reward exceptional workmanship, innovation, or styling. Probably emphasis on innovation. (F&F is covered at current levels well, and styling is subjective. But, they are inclusions.)

Rodrigo Sfreddo's integrals are certainly an example of the higher degree of mastery. Bruce Bump's pistol/knives as well. There are more. You get the idea....

Coop

Yes, the idea of creating a "Grand Master" (for lack of a better term) certification or category within the ABS for the elite was tossed around around several years ago. We had a pretty good discussion and even a poll here on Blade Forums.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...re-be-an-ABS-Certification-Above-quot-MS-quot

Just like everything else there's positives and negatives surrounding this idea.

Kevin's post addresses older certified ABS makers as staying within current guidelines/standards of F&F and style. Coop

Yes again Coop, as perhaps a re-testing would help motivate some MS to say more current in their designs and to stay up on some of the newer processes and techniques thus keeping work more in-line with current ABS standards of quality.

IF a MS is not creating knives to current standards just because they are not willing to put the time and effort into them, then perhaps it's not a question of re-certification but rather making them turn their stamp back in to the ABS. As a lack of commitment weights poorly on the majority of MS who truly put everything they have into every knife.

Thought provoking idea Kevin, there are many logistical factors that come into play if the "re-testing" idea should be considered.
Peter

Peter, I don't believe a re-testing would create serious logistical or even administrative issues. Especially if MS were required to re-test in increments of 7 years of them earning their MS certification, as there would be a limited number of MS coming up for re-testing in any given year. Re-testers would just bring their one knife for judging to Blade Show, ABS Expos or any ABS venue where JS and MS applications present their 5 knives for judging.

I'm not saying I'm necessarily a supporter of a re-testing process just feel that it could be a reasonably effective short term solution for inconsistency in degree of quality in MS knives that we hear collectors and even some MS complain about.

 

[ptgdvc]

I'm not saying I'm necessarily a supporter of a re-testing process, I just feel that it could be a reasonably effective short term solution for inconsistency in degree of quality in MS knives that we hear collectors and even some MS complain about.

The most effective solution for inconsistent quality in MS knives, is for knowledgeable collectors not to purchase them.

The MS stamp proves the maker met the standards of the ABS on the day it was awarded. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[A C Richards]

I think STeven kind of hit it. Once you make it an above and beyond award there will be a lot of politics involved. Anytime there is a monetary incentive (many would want to raise prices due to higher level achieved) problems arise. I liken the MS to any degree from a college or university. Once a degree is awarded most do not require current competency. Some (medical field esp) require some form of continuing education. This is normally required from the licensing agency rather than the awarding institution.

I do not like the idea of being required to re-test or prove proficiency on a continuing basis. The customer is the best litmus test of the quality if the work. This is still a rather small community and anyone doing sub-par workmanship is going to be well known in short order.

 

[NickWheeler]

I agree with Peter Gill.

If a maker is good, people will buy their knives. If they're bad, people won't. If they're GREAT, then everyone will want one, talk about them, and point out how good they are which will put them in the spot light.

I've come to look at the stamps a lot like a college degree. It means you did what it took to get it--- at the time you got it. If a guy wants to be "a top of the heap maker," then he'll continue to push himself while looking at the stamp as a point of personal pride and comradery in the ABS.... not as having reached the "finish line" after which you sit down and rest.

Look at it like this, a guy who earned a Mechanical Engineering degree in 1960 would be great at design and calculations, but wouldn't have known much of anything (at that time) about computer aided drafting. If he kept striving to be a great engineer, he would have grown and rolled with the times and would be quite proficient at CAD. But if he hadn't would that somehow take his Engineering degree away??? I don't think so. He just won't have too many customers for contemporary work.

It's up to an individual maker to continue to grow, improve, and keep earning their rating. The buyers will always be the ones deciding which makers are really doing just that.

***edit*** It looks like an echo as I was posting this at the same time as Peter and Chuck's second posts

 

[Kevin Jones]

The most effective solution for inconsistent quality in MS knives, is for knowledgeable collectors not to purchase them.

Both very good points Peter.

However not all collectors are knowledgeable and those who are new and/or inexperienced often purchase mastersmith knives on the premise that the "MS" mark is certification of high quality or the "creme of the crop" so to speak.

The MS stamp proves the maker met the standards of the ABS on the day it was awarded. Nothing more, nothing less.

I will ask the question, is the above what the stamp proves or does it indicate the the mastersmith is committed to uphold the quality standards of the ABS on all knives which he stamps with "MS".
I'm serious, this is a question, does anyone know the official requirements and responsibilities of a mastersmith applying his/her stamp?
Before being awarded use of the ABS's stamp, does the new MS have to recite an oath or sign an agreement as to him upholding the standards of the ABS?

 

[B . Buxton]

I think the ABS does a very good job testing and I also believe the public will illiminate any sloppy workmanship, by avoiding those makers. As stated earlier I believe that retesting by asking Mastersmiths to submit 1 knife for judging every 5-7 yrs. would be a waste of time, its more important to see what the makers are submitting to the public, at shows they attend instead of forcing them to make 1 judging knife. A maker could have a table full of crappy knives and 1 perfect knife, does that mean he still passes the test.
In my opinion obtaining the mastersmith rating is a very proud personal accomplishment and that its not to likely that many that dedicate the time to achieve that accomplishment are going to submit sloppy workmanship for the public to purchase. I feel that the public is more critical and judgemental of knives on a mastersmiths table then any other makers table and mastersniths know this, therefore keeping mastersmiths always tring to produce their best work. Sure there might be a very small percentage of MS's that don't take the profession as seriously as they once did, but with the internet, the public will soon make short work of those makers. It works in all professions, if you don't do whats expected of you, your soon out of business, be it doctors, lawyers, chefs, mechanics, knifemakers, etc,etc,etc.

As for the different rating for Mastersmiths, I really wouldn't care if they'd add a higher classifcation because of fancier embellishments or not, but I don't believe thats what the ABS is all about. I believe the ABS wants to educate the public on the quality of a good, forged working knife, with excellent fit and finish. If a makers want to add embellishments to make the piece more of an art piece, then thats up to the maker, but its not needed to make an excellent quality forged blade and I believe thats the purpose of the ABS.

Just my opinions,

Bill

 

[S R Floyd]

I agree with Nicks comments.

I would also like to add, I believe some of the standards of drifted away from what the founder of the ABS intended. I will not delve into detail for fear of offending members of the forum.

Scott
ABS apprentice
Member of the W F Moran foundation

 

[betzner]

This is a great thread, glad it got started. No question but that the only place out there for a real designation is the ABS. And in my opinion, the ABS designation of MS means alot to alot of people.

However, in the final analysis, the ongoing quality of any maker's work will give the marketplace the final say, as it should.

Bob

 

[Russ Andrews]

The ABS exists to teach...promote...perpetuate the art of the forged blade.

IF an additional stamp were in the offing, it should recognize and require ongoing

TEACHING.

 

[NickWheeler]

Excellent post Bill and Russ!!! I somehow didn't mention in my first post that I think an Ms is to be an ambassador for the forged blade---which Bill and Russ pointed out.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I think the ABS does a very good job testing and I also believe the public will illiminate any sloppy workmanship, by avoiding those makers. As stated earlier I believe that retesting by asking Mastersmiths to submit 1 knife for judging every 5-7 yrs. would be a waste of time, its more important to see what the makers are submitting to the public, at shows they attend instead of forcing them to make 1 judging knife. A maker could have a table full of crappy knives and 1 perfect knife, does that mean he still passes the test.
In my opinion obtaining the mastersmith rating is a very proud personal accomplishment and that its not to likely that many that dedicate the time to achieve that accomplishment are going to submit sloppy workmanship for the public to purchase. I feel that the public is more critical and judgemental of knives on a mastersmiths table then any other makers table and mastersniths know this, therefore keeping mastersmiths always tring to produce their best work. Sure there might be a very small percentage of MS's that don't take the profession as seriously as they once did, but with the internet, the public will soon make short work of those makers. It works in all professions, if you don't do whats expected of you, your soon out of business, be it doctors, lawyers, chefs, mechanics, knifemakers, etc,etc,etc.

As for the different rating for Mastersmiths, I really wouldn't care if they'd add a higher classifcation because of fancier embellishments or not, but I don't believe thats what the ABS is all about. I believe the ABS wants to educate the public on the quality of a good, forged working knife, with excellent fit and finish. If a makers want to add embellishments to make the piece more of an art piece, then thats up to the maker, but its not needed to make an excellent quality forged blade and I believe thats the purpose of the ABS.

Just my opinions,
Bill

And good opinions Bill.
My issue is that sometimes things which look true and practical on paper (like the market will sort itself out), don't pan out in practice. Just saying!

Glad to see knifemakers giving their opinions.