ABS Mastersmiths; On-going Testing?

Wow!
What an excellent thread! I have personally agonized over this very issue for years now, and almost all of my own thoughts have been voiced here.
I have long been a proponent of aditional rating above mastersmith for the simple reason of standards enforcement, But of course, I have internally battled with all these same arguments.
There is obviously concern among the collectors and makers of sub-par work being done by current Mastersmiths. I believe that on a whole, standards are kept steady by the market and the peers. There is one issue however that is unresolved in my opinion, and that is the matter of due recourse. If I as a collector, have purchased a knife from a MS that is stamped, and I can see that it is well below the reasonable expectations for MS work, and I can not get satisfaction from that maker, should I then be able to go above him or her with my issue to the institution who issued the stamp? I believe I should be able to, and as far as I know there is not that avenue for official recourse in place at this time.
As for retesting, I believe that it should absolutely be voluntary, and its purpose should not be to punnish, or eliminate current Mastersmiths, but rather to promote inovation and excellence in the whole of the custom knife world. I believe that there are good knifemakers out there who would push themselves to greatness if challenged by their peers and additional ratings. I also think we would see a return of greatness to the ABS as a market inovator. Let's face it, if we get stuck in the ruts of the same old road, somebody else will get to do all the exploring "off road".
There has also been discussion of specialty ratings, such as Master of folders, Master of swords, Master of Damascus, etc... The main problem there is, how and who will judge them?
The mention of continuing education is also very interesting. Many bladesmiths are continually seeking out ways to improve their skills. The ABS has been a great organization for promoting the value of the forged blade, and for educating the entry level and middle level knifemakers, but once you are a MS, you are pretty much on your own to find ways to improve your craft. It may help in stabilizing the standards to have ABS sanctioned seminars, or classes for upper level smiths. Again, personal pride, and the market should drive this behavior in makers, but the ABS might consider filling out their commitment to education for all their members, including the teachers.

Kevin, thank you for starting this discussion again. I don't know if anything will ever come of it, but it is good to jump start awareness periodically.

Adam-
 
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The ABS has the right to remove the stamps of makers they feel do not live up to the ABS standards. I do not know if they've ever pulled a stamp but it was in the bylaws the last time I read them.

Apprentice, Journeyman, Master..... it's worked for a long time for other crafts, maybe we could have some secret handshakes and secret meetings to plot our path of world domination. :D The creation of a "Super Ninja Mastersmith" seems like it would drive some huge wedges into the ABS.

One of my favorite things about smithing is teaching smithing. The ABS embraces this philosophy so I consider them fellow travelers.

I have other thoughts on the matter but feel that they're better expressed at a later time.
 
Kevin Jones said:
...not all collectors are knowledgeable and those who are new and/or inexperienced often purchase mastersmith knives on the premise that the "MS" mark is certification of high quality or the "creme of the crop" so to speak.
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I am certain that some newer collectors rely upon that MS stamp as an indicator of quality and value and to a large extent it is. But even the very best makers are human, and the quality of their workmanship and design will vary. Continually trying to find slightly superior examples from top makers, is what keeps me interested in collecting.

FWIW, the some of the best workmanship is often found on JS knives that are submitted for the MS test.
 
I wake up every morning proud to be an ABS Master Smith. On the day I passed, I told Jerry Fisk that the new rank was going to be as much a curse as a blessing. The five knives that I had just submitted took a year to make. They wore my butt out. I lost weight. I lost sleep. I lost income. I lost a little sanity.:o And now from this point on, every knife I make has to be that good, or preferably better. He agreed completely.

I have personally upheld that philosophy. Every single knife I make will more than pass the MS test. Not bragging; just fact. A very few ABS MS makers haven't continued to produce work worthy of their ranking. I believe that as situations arise, there should be an ABS Standards Commitee to address the situation and if need be, place the maker on probation for a set period of time. Bring your work back up or lose your stamp. If after a given period of time his work has not improved back to Master-level, he would lose his stamp. After a three-year waiting period, the maker would be offered the opportunity to re-test. Prior to that he could use his JS stamp or (preferably) no stamp at all.

Sounds tough, but that one maker casts a shadow over the other 124 ABS Master Smiths in the world. It makes the judging panel look bad for passing him and it makes for a dissolutioned knife buying public.

Cheers,

TV


Terry Vandeventer
ABS MS
 
In my view, the idea of having a higher rating in the ABS is not practical. I recently aquired my MS stamp and under my circumstances at the time, it was tough but I managed to get it done. I personally want to spend time increasing my skill level without the added pressure to achieve another rating. I feel I have proven that I can and am willing to exert myself to meet a standard. After that I want to broaden, not climb as such. In other words, even though I want to improve, I feel like I can now make a good knife that meets a standard, but now I want to learn embellishments for that knife. Really, in my opinion, the difference in a MS rating and a higher rating is the embellishments. And that is a matter of taste as much as ability.

Another thought, who is qualified to judge? Arbitrary appointments? I think there is a lot of wisdom in what Peter , Nick, and Bill have said. The market will balance things on it's own. Again, just my thinking. What will be will be.
 
ptgdvc said:
But even the very best makers are human, and the quality of their workmanship and design will vary. Continually trying to find slightly superior examples from top makers, is what keeps me interested in collecting.

FWIW, the some of the best workmanship is often found on JS knives that are submitted for the MS test.
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I totally agree Peter, especially with your last point. That's why I can't stress enough how beneficial it can be for new collectors and makers to examine these MS test knives.
 
Terry Vandeventer: Although it sounds correct on paper, I'm going to add fuel to this crackling fire: If William Moran were still making knives, with his brass handles and mediocre fitment, would the ABS still pull his rank?

Preposterous. But he'd be that kind of target should this standards committee do such.

Each proposition raises twice as many rebuttals and questions.

I don't hold solid to any of these precepts, nor do I really disagree with anyone. But I'm tossing the questions out there. Good discussion.

Coop
 
I am going to throw my hat into the ring--though I really have no right to.

My two cents would be to create a punitive retesting method. If a buyer feels that they have received a blade not up to ABS standards they can send it in and have it reviewed. If the blade is not within reason of ABS MS standards the maker gets a mark recorded against him/her. Too many marks within a given time frame and the maker is put on probation, required to re-test, etc. If the blade is completely awful the ABS should require the maker make reparations to the buyer. Make the cost for having a blade reviewed high enough to make sure it isn't cheap to abuse, and low enough that the beginning collector can afford it when necessary.

It would also be good to have a database of both makers and buyers. That way people can see how often a maker's blades are sent in, how often they pass, how often they fail, and how far apart occurrences are. Keeping a database of buyers who send blades in should also help prevent buyers from abusing the system.

I agree that the market will eventually sort things out, but if too many collectors start off with the mindset "once bitten, twice shy" it will slow the growth of new collectors. From what I've seen, in other markets I used to collect in, the maker usually didn't suffer public repercussions until they'd cheated about five people. Also, the better known, more personable makers were given significantly more leeway before public tide turned against them. I'm still new to the knife scene, so I can't say that this is a good/fair/accurate comparison. Just previous observations.

Just my thoughts for what it's worth.
 
Not to keep beating a dead horse, but something has become clear to me since my last post. The concept of a higher rating has mostly been a polite way of separating out those who take their MS rating very seriously, and those who don't. It occurs to me that the issues that have been prompting the whole discussion on continuing testing are stemming from the lack of ETHICS of just a few individual Masters. As has been stated above the market will eventually take care of poor work. It's the poor customer service that seems to be at the heart of this discussion. If some master had not been called on his poor work and then refused to satisfy the customers request for satisfaction, we would not be having this conversation. There is nothing wrong with the current testing system. As Terry pointed out there are only 125 Mastersmiths in the world. I'd say the test seems hard enough, and that the weeding out has already been done. It is the due recourse I spoke of earlier that is still missing. Like Coop pointed out, even Bill Moran wasn't making knives to the standard that is currently acceptable for MS work, but for his time he was one of the best. (Makes a good argument for dating your knives) It would apear that the standards of fit and finish will change with time. What will not change is that a very few makers will abuse the rest of us by conducting themselves by a far lower standard of business than is becoming of A Master who has had the privilege of being judged by his peers and found worthy. It is that behavior which needs to be addressed, not the rating system.

Having said all that, I still believe that VOLUNTARY retesting of some sort would promote the spirit of competition and inovation that would keep the ABS healthy as a standard setter.

Adam-
 
DesRosiers said:
Having said all that, I still believe that VOLUNTARY retesting of some sort would promote the spirit of competition and inovation that would keep the ABS healthy as a standard setter.

Adam-
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The specific reason that I pointed out additional testing should be optional, Adam....the best will seek it out, the least qualified will avoid it like the plague, and the silence will speak volumes.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Hello Friends,

It doesn't stand to reason that every knife a maker makes has to be better than the last. I've seen in this very forum a short run of nearly brute-de-forge cord wrapped blades made by a MS quickly sell out via advanced orders based on photos of one prototype posted in a thread. Seemed like everyone was duly satisfied and impressed, yet the blades were certainly not MS test quality. The maker's reputation as a fine craftsman that would reliably deliver a fine product of value stood him in good stead. On the other hand, if collectors had been burned by him previously as to quality of work or dubious business integrity, it is likely that that mini marketing venture would have faltered.

Being judged by jury via a set of standards as having made a sampling of great products isn't the same as being in business delivering great products. They are two different things and likely should be addressed by two different systems. Are there not knife collector organizations that would more appropriately address consumer issues? There are already regular consumer agencies, like the Better Business Bureau, responsible for addressing consumer issues in general. Specific knife collector agencies could relatively easily serve as clearing houses for collectors to report dissatisfaction with a maker and for collectors/buyers to check on makers' reputations prior to making purchases.

All the best, Phil
 
Coop,

Great point about Bill Moran! It never entered my mind. Moran always admitted that his fit & finish was not the best but that he made a good knife. And to the best of my knowledge, neither he or any of the original ABS founding members ever formally took the test. They developed the test and in the beginning, they administered the test. But it's always been my impression that they were more or less self-appointed as ABS Master Smiths. This may seem distasteful to some, but they had to start somewhere. It doesn't take a boxer to be a referee. And it doesn't take a knife-maker to be a judge.

At this point in time I would think any still living and active Master Smiths would be making knives capable of passing a masters test.

Folks, contrary to popular complaint, the testing has not gotten harder. Applicants are simply submitting better knives. The judging requirements remain the same. Nowadays training is available. Magazines and the internet keep people updated to trends and techniques. Specialty knifemaking equipment is now available.

When I walked into that room in Atlanta and saw the other MS submissions already laid out, I nearly turned around went back home. Yet out of 15 applicants, only four of us passed. The test is based upon fit & finish, artistic flow, ergonomics, and overall design. Not fanciness. (Your physical cutting-chopping-shaving-bending test has already been completed and passed or you wouldn't be here.) Damascus is only required on your quillon dagger. Other than your dagger, fancy work is not required or even encouraged. If you choose to submit engraving (of your own doing), filework, fancy fit-ups, sheaths, etc. All of that will be judged, too. All of those aspects will need to be of master quality, and a gorgeous knife with a sub-par sheath or decorations could cost you your stamp.

I'm doing much better work than I did back when I tested. I would think that Master Smiths who tested thirty years ago have been improving all along. If there are cruddy solder joints and flux leaking out, corroding the blades. If there are scratches from previous shows. If there are two-inch grind lines. If the blade is warped.:confused: It's time for a Standards Commitee to step in and put that MS on probation. It is the rare MS who tends to backslide but I have seen all of the above on one table...

Jus' sayin'

Cheers,

TV


Terry Vandeventer
ABS MS
 
Kohai999 said:
The specific reason that I pointed out additional testing should be optional, Adam....the best will seek it out, the least qualified will avoid it like the plague, and the silence will speak volumes.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Steven, some would jump at the chance to re-test and like you said, others would avoid it like the plague. There are more than a few reasons why a maker would or would not want to re-test.;)

The quality of my knives is most important to me and a life long obsession. But I would not want to test again, as that was a most stressful event that I do not wish to repeat. I did not need the stamp when I got it and I do not need it now. But I am proud and honored to have it!

If the time would come that re-testing was implemented, I would have to make the choice to re-test, or turn in my stamp. Because the old stamp would likely not mean much at this time. I do not like jumping through hoops, but prefer to do my own thing.:)
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
It ain't broke - don't try to fix it.
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Karl gets the award for making the most sense with the fewest words. ;)

I originally started this thread in hopes of generating productive discussion to perhaps clear up some concerns I had as a result of some recent forum posts and conversations regarding the quality (or more lack of such) of some mastersmith knives. I had considered quoting and summarizing some of these posts and conversations here without of course identifying sources but thought it may be inappropriate. To Coop's point, I knew I was taking a chance here as this thread could have turned non-productive or even nasty very quickly.

Anyway, as a long time collector of mastersmith knives and president of a collector's association, I make it a point to stay abreast of the ABS testing process and overall quality of ABS knives. As I stated in my opening post, I feel the ABS is doing an extremely good job in their testing process and don't feel there's a broad issue with mastersmiths not adhering to ABS quality standards. The productive discussion and excellent posts here have fortified these beliefs. Are there a limited number of mastersmiths not keeping up with quality standards? Yes, but then there's never going to be any endeavor or process that's perfect. It's unfortunate that when these limited negative issues are made public, it reflects badly on ALL 125 masters.
I believe I will agree with Karl, "if it ain't broke".

Thank you all for your honest opinions and partisipation here.
 
Phil Dwyer said:
Hello Friends, It doesn't stand to reason that every knife a maker makes has to be better than the last. I've seen in this very forum a short run of nearly brute-de-forge cord wrapped blades made by a MS quickly sell out via advanced orders based on photos of one prototype posted in a thread. Seemed like everyone was duly satisfied and impressed, yet the blades were certainly not MS test quality. The maker's reputation as a fine craftsman that would reliably deliver a fine product of value stood him in good stead. On the other hand, if collectors had been burned by him previously as to quality of work or dubious business integrity, it is likely that that mini marketing venture would have faltered.
Being judged by jury via a set of standards as having made a sampling of great products isn't the same as being in business delivering great products. They are two different things and likely should be addressed by two different systems. Are there not knife collector organizations that would more appropriately address consumer issues? There are already regular consumer agencies, like the Better Business Bureau, responsible for addressing consumer issues in general. Specific knife collector agencies could relatively easily serve as clearing houses for collectors to report dissatisfaction with a maker and for collectors/buyers to check on makers' reputations prior to making purchases.All the best, Phil
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Phil, there is a knife collector organization which appropriately addresses collector/consumer issues. The CKCA.
We will offer assistance to a collector who we feel has legitimately been wronged. For example, we were instrumental in a collector who resides in Hong Kong getting a $2000 deposit back from a knifemaker who had been holding it for years without producing a knife. It's not something we advertise, but one of the ways we serve the custom knife community.

The ABS has stepped in to moderate issues between member knifemakers and collectors.
 
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One of the keys to a discussion like this is whether the MS stamp is a "degree" or a "symbol of quality". Many times it is both of course, but as it is set up, the MS title is a "degree". It earns the person the right to use the initials much in the same way as an MD or Ph.D. It recognizes that the person has undergone a required training and ultimately a testing that is common to the degree. They can then use this title unless it is revoked. Once you have your degree, you can pursue the career of your choosing. Using the MD degree as an example, you might become a rural doctor or you might train beyond your degree and become a neurosurgeon. I personally have no issue if an MS degreed smith chooses to make utilitarian knives for the working man at a certain price point with the necessary compromises in handle materials etc, as long as the steel is high quality and performs to the MS test standards. Naturally, IMHO.
 
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