ABS test knife thoughts

NickWheeler

NickWheeler

Joined
Dec 3, 1999
Messages
9,437
Mitch's thread about his test knife ended up stirring up quite a conversation.

It was a really nice knife! and I was thinking it's pretty unfair that we got his thread so far off topic. So here's a new one for us to cuss and discuss.

I do agree that the ABS site should have it listed that NO damascus fittings are to be used.

However! In the defense of the ABS... even though it has gotten quite large and worlds beyond what the 4 founding members could of ever hoped for. It is STILL very much a small organization run by folks that are very giving of their time. There is not a bank of corporate secretaries filing and computing off in a sky-scraper in downtown NewYork.

Allthough that does sound like a good job for one Jerry Fisk ;)

I think if somebody is serious enough to step up to the plate for a Js or Ms stamp, they are going to do some serious homework. I went to the class that Jerry and BR gave at the Spokane, WA hammer-in. AND I also ask them all sorts of questions when I see them at shows.

Better safe that sorry.

As far as why something is allowed or not, i.e. damascus fittings.

You don't have to like or love a rule. There is nothing saying that as a Js you can never put damascus fittings on your knives or in your blades, etc. They're saying make 5 test knives to a set standard so that everyone is on a fairly level playing field and can be judged fairly.

What I've been told by a number of Ms is basically this: The judging is a very business oriented function. If you pass or fail, it's not because you held your mouth just right or rubbed shoulders with the right guy... it's because of the 5 knives you take and put down on the table. With that being the case... do your homework and take 5 good clean knives or varying design that show your skills and potential.

I PERSONALLY feel if someone is soooo turned off by the idea of tayloring their 5 knives to certain requisites to get their stamp that they want to make a big fuss about it... then they REALLY need to rethink if they REALLY want that stamp or not.

The stamp is proof that you stepped up and did the work to prove you could meet the requirements set by the ABS. If you don't like the ABS or don't care about what goes with it... then don't get the stamp. Nothing wrong with that if that's the case either.

I like the ABS... I like the people I have met because of it. I like how hard it works to teach and spread the learning of the art of the forged blade.

I am tremendously proud to be working toward a Js and Ms stamp. If I didn't want to be part of the whole shin-dig, I wouldn't bother testing.

Oh, and I'm not from the south, don't wear cowboy hats, and didn't get paid to say any of this ;)

-Nick-
http://www.wheelerknives.com
 
Well said, Nick!

When I went for my JS stamp a few years ago, I was told by a friend to: play by their rules, make the kind of knives they want to see, and do them well. AFTER you get your stamp you can go back to making the style of knife you enjoy. Best piece of advice I ever got.

Just my .02
Your mileage may very
YMHS--------Bob
 
I agree with just about everything you said here, Nick. I also feel it's very important that the rules and the criteria laid out by the ABS judges be communicated very clearly.

Many young makers don't get the opportunity to travel to a large show and attend one of the seminars offered by ABS judges. Further, as someone else pointed out in the other thread, there appears to be confusion even among Master Smiths about whether or not damascus fittings are allowed. So speaking with a MasterSmith and asking for pointers and advice may not provide the right answers either.

Just imagine an eager young maker travelling to Atlanta with the 5 best knives he's ever made, knives that he spent untold hours building, only to be disqualified from eligibility based upon a technicality, a rule that had never been clearly communicated or even published. It would break his heart.

This maker would then have to wait one more year before being able to earn his JS rating, and he would also be 1 year farther away from being eligible to test for his MS rating. ABS members know that there may be financial implications here as well - a rated smith is often able to command higher prices for his work than a non-rated smith, all else being equal.

It seems quite apparent that some clarification is needed. A quick update to the website and a short blurb in the ABS journal would clear things right up.
 
First, I want to emphasize that the ABS, as a private organization, has any right to set up whatever rules they want. As members, it is incumbent upon us to eventually either comply or get out.

Plus, I personally love the underlying drive behind the ABS, and I love the makers (though to be fair there are plenty I don't know).

Having said that...

1) Rules should be rational. No damascus on the blade is one thing because everyone understands why that is. However, no damascus fittings doesn't really serve a purpose that I understand. Maybe the ABS could explain the reasons for this rule better. Even though they don't have to, it would be good step towards better acceptance & goodwill.

2) Rules should be enforced consistently. If you don't enforce them consistently, you send mix signals and people of good faith are going to get pissed, with reason. If the rule was not enforced consistently before, then the policy change should be communicated forcefully, through the magazine, the web site, forums, and not only through informal networks and at hammer ins.

Generally speaking, I suspect that the plain steel v. damascus requirements are a bit outdated. They are from a time when only a few makers could consistently make damascus of good quality. Since then, the ABS has fulfilled its educational goals in large part and most JS-level makers can produce very high quality damascus.

JD
 
I'm not an ABS member and don't know that I ever will be. I'm just starting to play with forging and don't know that it will ever be my main thing :confused:

I have been involved in quite a few organizations over the years that deal with judged events. I show quarter horses, I'm an AQHA, OQHA, and NRHA member. I also was in 4H for 10 years and have been involved with everything from running the shows to planning for years to come.
There are some things an organization has to do if it wants to be fair, and wants to be taken seriously. The number one thing is to set standards and stand behind them. Judges for horse shows have to be certified. For the shows I compete in that means watching videos and comparing scores with qualified judges, being apprentice to qualified judges, and passing a test.
It seems like the ABS is doing a pretty good job of training their judges.

Then those standards that the judges have been trained in have to be made public knowledge. It can't be left to a seminar or class that some people made it to. That just doesn't work. It can't be word of mouth at all because everyone has their own interpretation and will pass it on differently. You end up with those who aren't "in the loop" not knowing what the rules are, or giving them room to claim they didn't.
All rules and judging standards should be written in a booklet. One copy of that book should me sent to every member at the beginning of every year. The rules should also be available online. That leaves no excuses for not knowing the rules and judging standards. They should lay out exactly what they mean, and not leave room for a lot of different interpretation.
Those rules should be enforced consistently. Any changes should not be made on a whim, they should be passed and put into print for the next year.Rules should always be enforced as written, no changes unless the written rule has been changed.

I realize the ABS isn't as big an organiztion as some, and that mailing out rule books would take an enormous amount of time and effort. But if they want to become a larger organiztion they need to think about things like this. They've already outgrown the methods they're using now.
By mailing out the books and making them available online, no one can say they weren't informed. Having clear standards set out leaves no room for argument. And following the printed rules for the entire year, makes for consistency and helps the organization develop. As the rules are laid out for the next year, the whole previous year can be looked at.
 
I also pondered the ABS ruling about no damascus for JS. I was advised to just leave damascus off entirerly to avoid any disscussion among the judges. There are levels of skills to be achieved as a bladesmith and for journeyman level we are showing that we can forge steel not make damascus. Its best to save the damascus for master level. Dont "put the horse before the cart" if ya know what I mean.
 
I don't have a problem with the no damascus fittings for the test knives. I was just really surprised when I found out yesterday. I do prefer knives with damascus fittings. I'll just have to change my game plan. Also I have no intention of pushing it with the judges, I'll build what they want to see, hope I can sell them though ;)

Don Hanson lll sunfishforge.com
 
First let me say that I think the ABS is a great organization run by the most talented people in the custom knife business today.

With that said I also want to ask the ABS to make sure that the rules are clear and precise and that everyone including ALL THE MASTERS know and fully understand about what is allowed or not allowed on JS & MS test knives.

I attended several ABS sponsored Hammer-IN's before I tested in Atlanta last year and had the opportunity to set in front of the most talented bunch of Masters in the US and at no time did any one of them ever say anything about Damascus fittings being a NO NO on the JS test knives.

When I posted on the other thread about having used Damascus last year on JS test knives on my guards I didn't know that you weren't supposed to do so until a day or so ago when Mr. Fisk posted about talking to Mr.BR Hughes.

I'm not trying to a kick a sleeping bear in the rear here. Any one of us would be happy to do what ever the ABS wants us to do on these test knives and hopefully no one would go to the trouble of making five test knives and spending $1000.00 to travel to the blade show for the weekend knowing full well that they used something on the test knives that wasn't allowed to start with. I know I sure wouldn't have!!

It is my understanding and belief that the ABS is an organization that goes to great strides in an attempt to educate the people around the world.

If so many people are not understanding the rules and it's really cristal clear that they don't fully understand the JS Damascus thing including myself up till now then wouldn't it be a wonderful and perfect time to re educate the masses and put this one question about fittings to rest ??????? Wouldn't it be a great time to let everyone know what can be used in the fittings for JS knives so there is no mistakes in the future ??? ;) Shouldn't cost to much to update the ABS web site and add a page to the American Bladesmith magazine that all ABS members receive would it???
Best Regards,
Ron Duncan
 
I agree with you guy's here i think it is Critical that the rules be laid out plainly and enforced to all aplicant's period !im a very firm believer that everyone should play by the rules of the game , which can be difficult if the rules are not posted /written somewhere that any applicant can find if they choose to .i think the ABS is a great group and have done alot to show what a guy/girl with a hammer some fire and a chunk of steel can do .im planing on going for my stamp here in another year just beacuse i like to be judged by my peer's other maker's . i don't have any kind of problem with the no damascus on a J.S blade beacuse i think i understand their ( ABS) reason you need to show you can do normal steel first /the pourpose for the J.S test is to show this in "Normal " steel first . Then to do it again in Damascus and keep the same quality .
 
This discussion has taken place in one form or the other for at least the last two years that I have judged at the JS level. I got involved when someone called me and told me they had put damascus fittings on a couple of their test knives. Rather than second guess it, I went straight to the man in charge....BR Hughes. His answer was "No Damascus means No Damascus, period." As far as I'm concerned, he's in charge, he said no, so that means no......none, nada, zip.

To the point of people seeing if they can get away with it.....it ain't gona happen any more. Let's face it folks, rule are the rules. No where in life are all the rules completely and clearly laid out for you. There is always someone with a question of interpretation about this part or that part of something.

The thing about this issue that gets me a little upset is that the ABS does not go out and solicite for people to test for their JS or MS stamps. (some treat it like that, and think they should be spoon fed everything that goes along with it) It's the individual's choice. If they choose to do it, then it is up to them to ask the questions, explore the rules, and get clarification for any points they are not fully comprehending. Here is the line straight out of the ABS JS judging guidelines:
"The knives to be judged must be made of plain carbon steel (No Damascus)"
How difficult is that to understand? I suppose it could be interpretated how ever a person wanted, but taking it at face value it seems pretty clear.
The point was well made in the other thread about creating 5 knives to meet a specific set of criteria. When it all boils down, the judges are really looking at the individuals ability to create 5 well designed, well executed knives. I like to use the terms "Super Clean" and "Super Simple".
I'd like to also address, some people who want to test get up tight because they think the ABS is telling them how they have to make their knives........I can address this, because I was one of those people. It took me 7 years to test for my MS, because I couldn't get past my own pig headedness. Finally one of the MS took me aside and just flat out told me, "Your being a real a$$h***, do what they want to see, and stop fighting about it." It was some of the best advice I'd ever received. It's a voluntary thing, and the rewards are well worth the simple "attitude adjustment" that I (and possibily others) required.

Do I make all my knives in the ABS style? No. But I did when the situation called for it, and I achieved a personal goal of making it into the ranks of the ABS Mastersmiths. That should be good food for thought for anyone wishing to achieve their JS or MS stamp.

I would submit that if anyone has questions about the judging guidelines, they should go directly to the source. In both the JS and MS judging there is one person in charge. Find that person, and you will find your answers, it's that simple. If you choose to guess, then you'll be guessing when judging time comes too.

OK, now that's out of the way, Mitch made a great looking knife! Don't be down about it no being eligable. If you did that one, then I'm sure there are many more where it came from.

Nick, thanks for starting the thread.....I came in on it a little late, but had to put my thoughts about the No Damascus thing in. (didn't we just have a similar conversation a few weeks ago in Hamilton?) :)
 
Ed, Thanks for giving us the benefit of your thoughts on this subject. I have the utmost respect for you and the job you did judging the ABS JS smiths knives in the past and by the way congratulations on this years promotion to the MS level judge.

I do want to ask you one thing though and this is where I'm still a little lost I guess.

When you say that you and Jerry have spoken to BR and he said no Damascus what so ever and I now fully understand what that means. Here is the question and it pertains to your quote from the ABS rules.

"The knives to be judged must be made of plain carbon steel (No Damascus)"

Aren't people going to perceive that this means nothing but plan carbon steel can be used on the JS test knives including the fittings to???

My question to you now.

Is everything else out there that we knife makers use everyday for fittings OK with the ABS and the judges to put on these ABS test knives with the one exception of Damascus then????

What about the other things that we all use from time to time on fittings like Nickle silver, Brass, Titanium, Timascus, Copper, mokume, Aluminum, Micarta, Stainless steel, carbon sell, blued steel and so on and so on?????

Congratulations again Ed on the step up to MS judge!!!
Ron Duncan
 
Not to be a pest, but...

I'm not questioning the No Damascus rule. It makes sense to me and I don't need to belabor that point. BUT!

Several ABS guys have chimed in and said something to the effect of "What don't you understand about 'The knives to be judged must be made of plain carbon steel (No Damascus)'???"

What I don't understand is the part in this document where it states, very clearly, that "Handle material is irrelevant and solely the choice of the applicant." In my view, that rule is an obvious contradiction to the position you guys have made very clear that damascus is not to appear ANYWHERE on JS test knives.

All I'm saying is that the ABS Webmaster needs to fix this, because it's a nit that jerks like me will continue picking as long as it's there.

-Allin
 
That isn't how I read it Ed. When I read that sentence "The knives to be judged must be made of plain carbon steel (No Damascus)" I see "no pattern welded, wootz or laminated blades" not "no part of the knife may be made of damascus". I can't think of a logical reason why any other part of the knife being made out of damascus should matter. If you're going to restrict damascus fittings it seems only reasonable to state clearly that you aren't just talking about the blade, and perhaps even why.
 
Your points are well taken guys..... and I can see that if a person wants to questions the rules, they can find a way to do it. I stand by my recommendation that if a person has a question about what a specific part of the rule(s) means (and it needs interpretation for that person), then it's up to that individual to seek out the answer. I get the impression that eveyone wants every aspect covered to the Nth degree. That would be impossilbe in my opinion. The rules would be so long winded and drawn out that it would do more harm than good.
I truly think that there is a level of personal responsibility that has to be taken by each individual who wishes to successfully complete the JS or MS test.
It all goes back to the issue of those testing trying to impress the judges by doing things that are above their current skill level. Jerry was right in the other thread when he talked about people who have failed; Being upset because they had damascus on their knives....the probelm was that the individuals were hoping that the damascus would get a "WOW", and over shadow the obvious mistakes in those knives.

Gotta leave for church....I'll check back in later.
 
I would agree with the point many are making. The requierments for the test knives should be clear.

I am basically an amature because I have never been tested. My point is simply an organisation was developed with a standard test. With a concept in mind. I think the original concept should be maintained. Yes it is sad if someone misses out because of an honest mistake however I think it shows intergrity and commitment to all those who have passed as per the intended concept. To change the test now would take something from it. The worst thing that could happen to any test is for the intgrity of the original concept to be erroded.
I make mostly Damascus knives but if I ever win the lottery and could afford to do the test I would want to do it the way it was originally intended. As done by all those before me. Good luck to all those attempting the test and all those who passed.

Just my opinion not a shot at anyone.
 
Just as an innocent by-stander, for I'm not eligable to test until 2007, since I just joined the organization last year. I went in and reread the test knife specifications and they do need to be changed, to keep others in the future from making the mistake of attaching damascus fitting to their test knives, and it wouldn't take but a few words stating, "All JS test knives containing any damascus, either used for guards, spacers, bolsters, ferrules, etc, will not be submitted for judging and will be disqualified."

I can see where it can definately cause misunderstanding and problems, if someone shows up with damascus fittings and is disqualified. But it won't be me.
This is what it states now.

Handle Configuration: Any handle configuration is acceptable with or without guard, bolsters, ferrule, etc.
- Handle material is irrelevant and solely the choice of the applicant.

Good luck gals/guys,

Bill
 
This isn't about circumventing the rules, or failing people doing B.S. work on their knives, it's a really really easy error to make, and most importantly it's not an area where most would think they needed clarification. One line says "simple carbon steel, no damascus," Because they're in the same sentence, with no contextual reference to handles, fittings, or pin material, it seems to clearly refer only to the blade material. On another line it states that the handle material is unimportant, which reinforces the logic that only the blade cannot be damascus. Guards and fittings are part of the handle, so I can make them out of whatever as long as quality construction is maintained. This makes it seem very cut and dry, guards and fittings aren't included in that "no damascus" statement.

**Edit**
On that issue of quality and "wow factor" to cover up other problems. Understandable, but that's a judging issue, and people who complain about failing after being shown what the problem was aren't worth your time as a judge. I'm not gonna try to cover why damascus fittings should be allowed or not, it's completely up to the ABS on the requirements for the knives, what the organization says goes one way or another.
**End edit**

I understand the frustration that can be presented by people always nitpicking rules and whatnot to try to find a way to weasle through the system, or just plain being ignorant . Making and changing even small parts of the written rules are a pain sometimes, especially in relatively large organizations like the ABS. This discussion seems to indicate it should be put under consideration though. Clarify in official ABS literature that "no damascus" refers to the knife as a whole, not just the blade.
 
Guys, let me throw in for just a minute here. The ABS does all it can not to restrict or limit as much as possible what a person wants to make. We do not ask for specfic designs of blades nor handle materials and a host of other things that makes each persons knife unique. When the rules were set up we try to advoid having guys go by a blue print. We like them to make as much as possible what they would like to submitt. There does need to be some guidlines. We tried to make it as little as possible. In other words when going for your stamp we do not ask for a Scagle design and a Moran influenced blade etc. We like for you to do your own work as long as it is done well and you are asked simply to make a knife based upon the fewest guidelines possible. Now if you would like ,please petion the Chairman Joe Keeslar and ask for blueprints of knives that is to be submitted of what is expected so it takes any and all of your individual freedoms away and all will make the same clones. We could probally come up with a set of blueprints to work off of if that is what yall are asking for. That is certainly up to you and I can assure you if you will write in and ask for this it will be brought up during the board meeting.

These few quidelines helps the judges better look at your work. You guys go for your stamp once hopefully, maybe twice. The judges will look at sometimes more than 20 at a time each year. The judges give up their set up time for the show and often their selling time so they can judge you, for your own benifit so you can improve and make more knives and more money for yourself. They are responsibile for holding the line on quality and upholding the standards of the ABS for quality of blades. They make it more difficult for themselves by keeping the rules as few as possible. If you want more rules then please ask for them, it will sure help the judges to see if you are off.

I do not judge the JS but I will oversee the judging of the masters. I look forward to seeing some of you in there when that time comes. If you have any questions at that time please let me know.
 
Jerry, it's not a "more rule" issue, just sorta move that "no damascus" thing somewhere so we associate it with the rest of the knife, instead of just the blade. :cool:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top