ABS test knife thoughts

I found this thread a bit late. But wanted to jump in anyway.

To start with I was one of the guys who failed the JS last year.

I failed because my knives just were not "THERE".

One of the guys on the thread said something like.."What if you were a first time guy, spent a lot of money to get there, and then failed..." Something like that.

Well I kinda wanted to say something about that. See I am that guy. It was my first show. My first bunch of "good" knives. My big chance to really shine.

When Mr. Hughes called me in....and told me I had failed...I wanted to puke. All of the judges had questions for me. I still have no idea what they were. It is all a blur.

After packing up my knives,I went back to the hotel room...pissed off...hurt....head spinning. Talked to the wife...and we deicded to stay for the rest of the show instead of tucking tail.

Got a chance to meet some good people. Talked to a couple of the judges...but I'm not sure I was listening.

When I got home I was still pissed at everybody but me. Started a thread on another website that pissed a few follks off...and I never realized how big the chip I was carrying had gotten. I got my knives out to wipe them down and they were talking to me. Telling me all the things that were'nt right. They didn't lie.

I realized the judges hated telling me I failed as much as I hated hearing it. It weren't personal. It was just truth. How you deal with truth says a lot about you. All in all I failed two tests, one about my skills and one about my character.

A guy better make a point in showing up at hammer in's and shows before he tackles his tests. If, like me, he wants to make excuses about distance and money, then he better choose a different line of work. And visits to several MS's shops better be on the list if you wanna pass the test.

In a nutshell...ask some questions before you even start thinking about testing. Talk to a bunch of people...write some letters. Do your homework.
Just cause you can make a knife cut don't mean you can make one sing!

If you want the stamp you gotta do the work. If you don't want to do the work...then you don't want the stamp bad enough. Either way it takes care of itself.

It ain't about the ABS...it ain't about what other people done to you. It is about improving your ability and having the skills to produce any kind of knife a customer might want. That is the business. Get used to it or quit.

Do the preparation,do the work, get it done...and get over it.

As for me, I won't make it back this year...my knives still aren't "THERE".
Maybe next year. But dang sure bet that I'll be making the rounds in my area to learn some more, before I head south again.

In the meantime, damascus...no damascus...don't worry about it...if this is a hurdle that stops you then you should re-think your drink, maybe take up knitting or pottery.

Here endeth the lecture.

Shane
 
You know, I get the feeling that nobody understands some of my questions. Simply put: why is damascus verboten on fittings when other materials, including mokume and timascus which are basically damascus in non ferrous metals, are OK.

I'm not saying that people should rebel against the rule or anything of the sort. I just like to understand the "why".

Ron Duncan put the right question together.
 
Ed, Jerry, and who ever else setting in the upper seating arrangement of the ABS organization that have read and pondered over this and the other thread.

I personally think that we are all simply asking for the same thing in the long run, that being - what materials can we use on these test knives. We don't need blue prints, or drawings, just give us a general Idea of the materials that can and will be accepted buy both the judges and the ABS as acceptable for fittings on these test knives. Shouldn't take a brain surgeon nor a engineer to do that.

I started taking my JS test knives around to the ABS hammer-in a couple years before i tested last year and had several MS tell me not to show up in Atlanta with Brass fittings on my JS knives. If I remember correctly they said Brass has no class so don't use it. Yet it doesn't say anything about Brass not being one of the materials that can't be used on the ABS testers rules page. I know from talking to several masters over the last couple years that there is a lack of knowledge among the ranks as to what can and can't be used on these knives. It just seams to me if they as masters don't know what can and can't be used then it's pretty darn hard for some of us not so sharp guys like myself to figure it all out.

Maybe if everyone was playing on the same side of the field with clear instructions it just might help elevate the mass confusion that does exists among the members of the ABS and some costly mistakes down the road not to mention keeping someone from getting there feelings hurt really bad and all messed up because they worked so hard on these knives and they weren't up to the Judges standards because of an easy fixable problem with the rules that would clear everything up without having to re invent the wheel.

Ron Duncan







`
 
Well I've let all this run for a while... so, for all, here's my take on things or some of it anyway....

for Nick:

I'm not in the least offended where my thread wandered off to. heck I actually learned something important! We are now aware of angles and insights I had'nt even anticipated so it's helped me out to say the least.

for Ed Caffery:

Don't bother re-reading the thread, but although the tone went sort of negative rather quickly, I was never in the least miffed about being told my knife should stay home nor insinuated such; quite the contrary, I'm just glad I found out in time to change directions as is Don Hanson.

for all.....

I laughed when Ed posted he'd "gone to Church".. I'd just come home. I started thinking. A dangerous endevor but I did it just the same. Martin Luther reformed the Church and is sigularly responsible for every Christian Faith in existance today save the Roman Catholic Church. Not to start a hikack, but the reason we have any diversity of Christian Faith is because Luther questioned the powers that "were" at the time: the Holy Roman Catholic Church. He posted his 96 thesis http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=%22martin+Luther%22+%2Bthesis/v=2/SID=e/TID=BVT_6/l=WS1/R=4/IPC=us/SHE=0/H=1/SIG=126ngsj88/EXP=1109649787/*-http%3A//www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm on the Church door at Wittenburg and the rest is history in the biggest way. Rather than go off on a tear, I'll cut to the chase. Every Sunday, we (our congregation) proclaim (recites) either the Nicene Creed or the Apostle's Creed depending on where we are in the Church year. These are simple liturgical responses that have stood the test of time for over 1300 years. So why did Luther find it necessary to write his famous small and large "Catechism" wherein he explains what these words mean? Well.... there were "questions", that's why. So he sought not to re-write the Holy Bible (just out in English if you can call it that, thanks to King James, the year 1550 or there'bouts ..), nor the Nicene Creed or the Lord's Prayer. No. He just explained to those of us who were not theologians, just plain folk, not insiders so to speak... what the hell it meant!
I personally find Martin Luther's Small Catechism rather usefull. I am rather dense...
We, Americans, have a Constitution. It took several drafts to achieve this document but lo and behold, we've ammended it upteen times! So what was wrong with the first one?? Well... things came up you see. And speaking of things coming up; what is this "Supreme Court" business??? You mean the damn Constitution isn't clear enough??, we need "arbitration"?? Well yeah??!!, the SC is as busy as ever!

Yaw'll, I'm just fun'in you here but sometimes really sound documents do need clarification: this does not mean they need to re re-written, changed or necessarily omitted, just clarified. I can say this with all honesty as the critical moment has been avoided: I can assure you that Don Hanson and myself were both just genuinely suprised as to where this all went. Had we shown up with Damascus fittings on our JS knives, it would have been an innocent blunder on our part, not a dare in any sense. I do not advocate changing the rules, just a new paragraph in the guidelines link would do the trick. If anything is causing this much stress, it would make sense to address it.


for Shane Justice:

Now here's some insight from the other side of the table... Shane: can you post us some pictures of the knives you submitted?? I find it admirable you've posted for us here concerning the "reverse of the medal" as they used to say... I believe this can become an instructional thread and sort of fill the gap for those of us too far flung or just plain unable to attend hammerins, semminars'n such. Thanks so much for your input.

lastly....

All this hyperbole about my knife got it a lot of attention.... I sold it yesterday ..... :)


regards, mitch
 
Gratz on the sale, it looks beautiful.

I just went over the show judging and test knife criteria on the ABS website with a more critical eye(and Pff's help), they are seperate mind you. Only the Test knife criteria stipulates that you can use anything you want for the handle material. The show knife criteria doesnt state anywhere that you can use whatever you want, the point still stands though that it could be worded better, so that there is a clear distinction between the "simple carbon steel" requirement for the blade and the "no damascus" requirement for the whole knife.
 
This thread may save some heart ache and we can all learn from it. The ABS recommends that each apprentise choose a master smith as a mentor to avoid this type of thing. I got my feeling hurt a few times too but bounced back on track and am a better man because of it. Clean and simple is best. After You get Your stamp just go crazy with whatever You want to make.
 
First of all; I think this is a very civil dicussion about an important matter. We all learn by discussions like this.
To address Ron's question directly:
This is pretty much what you can have on your JS applicant knives for the board review in Atlanta.
Carbon steel blades with anything your imagination will conjure up; except welded material. No patternwelded, no cable, bike chain, etc., etc.
As for the "timascus" that keeps being discussed here. If you lay a knife with that on the fittings or whatever on the table; then the judges have to detirmine exactly what the material is. Is it timascus, damascus, or..... Or do we hunt down the maker and ask them what the material is. NO TIME.NOT NECESSARY. Why go there to start with. Don't put it on there.
As for wording on the test knives; I think we can work on that.
The whole damascus fitting issue: The ABS is a continually evolving organization. It changes. Also our specifications for testing changes to reflect the constantly escalating quality of the forged blade. The MS requirements are getting more and more stringent. There was a time when a quillion dagger was not required for the MS tests.
The JS testing is advancing also. That is the responsiblity of the judges. To uphold the standards of the ABS. Todays standards. We all get better. We all advance. That is the driving force behind the ABS and its ratings program.
Whether I, you, or whomever agrees with the judging criteria is irrelavant.The criteria will change over time. It is the applicants responsiblity to stay abreast of this. It may require more effort than looking at a website or overhearing a conversation.
GO, look, make phone calls, put forth the effort to inform yourself. Anyone with a ratings stamp did. So must you.
The ABS is where it is now because of excellent leadership, and superb craftsmanship and artistry.
Shane; I will be happy to see your work when you get ready; keep hitting it.
A great discussion guys. I look forward to seeing each of you in Atlanta.
Mike
 
anvilring said:
lastly....

All this hyperbole about my knife got it a lot of attention.... I sold it yesterday ..... :)


regards, mitch
Click to expand...

;) I'm sure the lucky buyer will be most pleased with his purchase. :)
 
Mike, Thank you for your thoughts and input on this matter of fittings and the Damascus thing for the JS test knives. You have done exactly as I would have expected you to do in the manner we as ABS members can relate to and clearly stated what can and can't be used on these JS test knives and that the wording on the rules will be addressed.

I was beginning to think no one really knew for sure or was just plum afraid to say one way or the other. This was starting to resemble someone trying to mate two steel fence post and expecting a telephone pole as the result. :rolleyes:

Thanks again for addressing this matter in a professional, clear and polite manner .

Ron Duncan
 
I guess I'm dense too, but I still don't understand why damascus fittings are not allowed. I understand that they are not allowed, and that you either play by the rules or not play, and I don't have a problem with that. But I still don't understand why.

The closest we got from an explanation is that the ABS got tired of having to explained to candidates that had been failed that no, putting damascus on their knives wasn't going to offset other defficiencies.

So because a few idiots complained, the ABS decided to "level the playing field" and remove one creative dimension from the process because ... they were tired of having to educate candidates? Say it ain't so.
 
Joss said:
but I still don't understand why damascus fittings are not allowed. .
Click to expand...
and some may never understand..

remember the boys only club as a kid, no girls
. why?? :)
it's a road map , all of it..trying not to have a lawyer in your pocket as to have
to read it
IMHO .

I think Bruce hit this one on the head.
"The ABS recommends that each apprentise choose a master smith as a mentor to avoid this type of thing"

hey if not tending to be part of the test it should be ..

if
you did this one thing I think anyone would be ready when the time comes,
..because that master will get you through it
when you're ready..if not :eek:
he has to explain it..

I think Shane is a big man for what he's said and learned.

I think it's like Voting if you don't vote there's know place to complain..

do the time, choose a master..
we have no right to complain it's not our place, if we want it to be,,
become a voting member..
. if you tested and failed you are told why..
sure it sux but that is what rules are for.. learn from the guys that know,,short cuts don't paint a great picture..


edited to add this is not directed to any one person.. :) JMO
 
I just copied this from the ABS site.
Code: 
 The knives submitted must be the work of the applicant alone.
This may not have any thing to do with blades and damascus fittings but some of you ask about timascus and mokume fittings. Most can probably make mokume but how many of us can make timascus for the fittings. I would interpret this to mean that If I didn't make it from the individual pieces of sheet stock then I couldn't put it on a test knife.
 
Failing the JS test was definitely an abrupt awakening.

I hope somebody out there takes these words to heart. It might save then some heart ache. That's about all they're good for.

Mitch, I do have pics of my knives in my old computer. I love each one of them, but honestly they are on the awkward side. I'll try to dig the pics out if I can. After spending time with them under some harsh bright light I can tell you this...

What killed me was simple stuff. The solder lines at the guard were not just right.The meeting of guard and handle did not flow. I chose to radius all of the edges on the guard and handles. (just my preference) And some other fine details that got pointed out to me by a new MS, Burt Foster.

The real killer was something that stuck in my head when I read the rules. Something about making 5 different knives. I pushed to come up with not only 5 different styles, but also a different finish on each blade. One Big Bowie was browned, one Khukuri style knife had what I call a hard matte finish, one using knife had a gray acid etch, one little neck knife had a bright near mirror finish, and the one that failed me outright had a deep etch that I thought looked pretty cool and showed off something of a weird segregation affect.

I was NOT trying to impress those guys. I was just trying to do what I THOUGHT was right. Thinking is not enough. You gotta know.

I think the judges wanted to see 5 different knives that showed off "CONSISTENT" ability to produce a Journeyman level fit and finish.

What I heard repeated in Atlanta was "Crisp and Clean".(BTW~Them words are pasted to my shop wall! No kidding.) There ain't no need to go all "Whoop Tee Doo" with fancy~schmancy meteorite fittings and mastodon ivory from Outer Mongolia. Just show them you got the skills to do one after the 'nother without missing a beat.

This was stuff I should have known. Period.

To Mike Williams...
I appreciate your offer to look at my knives. Don't think I won't take you up on it either.

Thanks for letting me ramble.
Shane
 
Given the comments on how standards are evolving... how long before the early JS tests become Apprentice tests, the Early MS tests are JS tests and some REAL strict mastery tests are evolved using all the knowledge and evolved techniques are implementated?
 
Your description of your test knives tells us a lot. And like you, I've heard "crisp and clean" before. Do you live in Oklahoma? I was born in Ardmore and grew up around Heladton, Fox and Ragtown.... I moved to Texas just as soon as I could read a road map. :)

For Mike Williams:

You posted this earlier....

"Whether I, you, or whomever agrees with the judging criteria is irrelavant.The criteria will change over time. It is the applicants responsiblity to stay abreast of this. It may require more effort than looking at a website or overhearing a conversation.
GO, look, make phone calls, put forth the effort to inform yourself. Anyone with a ratings stamp did. So must you."


I'm fine with what I've underlined above. However you get varied opinions from different MS on virtually every aspect of this craft. Some MS are rather inactive as far as the ABS doings are concerned and far away from the judgeing rooms not to mention we (bladesmiths) are a rather colorful and opinionated group in the first place, So I would still say that somewhere an official stance of the current judging "tone" (here you may insert 'no damascus fittings') be aired for all members it might affect. That of course being people looking for stamps.

A modest proposal: "The Judges Corner"

How much room on the website can this take up?? BR would of course write it and it would clear up hearsay, misinformation and lay opinion to the side. People could post questions to the site and when a question came up enough, it could be included in a FAQ right there in the "corner". Mike, and anyone else higher up that's listening; just look what we're doing. This is the method of communication of choice. Going foreward, the website is going to play a much more important role than most realize. How easy it would be to make it the place people go for definitiive answers rather than fishing about for what they need to know. It will never take the place of a MS having a look at an applicants knives prior to Atlanta, but it could prevent some stressful situations for both applicant AND judges alike at the show.




regards, mitch
 
Mitch; I also believe that it should be as clear as possible for for the JS and MS applicants. It WOULD be a lot less stressful for everyone.
I believe it is something to work on.
Joss; unless a person has been involved in the process it is hard to imagine the things that come up during the judging. The applicans are usually in a pretty emotional state. Sometimes it is very tense. R\Everyone who has been there understands.
The no damascus rule is a good rule for the JS applicants. When you ask the panel to look at a piece of damascus; too many variables come into play. Such as; is the etch too deep, too shallow, is it dirty, good contrast? are the welds perfect, any blisters? It goes on. Many; not all by any means; but many applicants can't see the small nuances that make it good stuff. And truthfully; the juging room is not the place or time to try to explain it.
So many of the guys can not understand that perfect damascus doesn't count for beans in the JS room if you can't do a crisp, clean carbon blade.
I don't look for the rule to change.
Well put Ron; thanks.
You guys come by and say hi at at the show.
mike
 
m l williams said:
The no damascus rule is a good rule for the JS applicants. When you ask the panel to look at a piece of damascus; too many variables come into play. Such as; is the etch too deep, too shallow, is it dirty, good contrast? are the welds perfect, any blisters? It goes on.
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying: basically, damascus just adds opportunities for something to go wrong, without helping the knife pass the other criteria. But the makers are all adults, and they could be responsible for this choice.

Further, JS applicants come to the show with those 5 or 6 JS knives, and they need to be able to sell them too. They can't all afford to have on one hand their knives for sale and on the other those for testing. Quite often, damascus is one thing that will help them sell them. For example, Don Hanson is really well known for his mosaic damascus. If I am a prospective customer, I am likely to want a knife which is representative of the maker. Does that mean that the knife will sell if it has damascus fittings but not if it's plain steel? probably not. But it might have fetched a higher price, or sold sooner, etc.
 
as I see it,,,the point of the 5 or 6 JS knives are for testing..not selling
sure if you sell them great,
but the point is testing,,
buyers buy lower end knives also..so I don't see a problem .. besides I wouldn't want to show up at blade with just a few blades anyway, this is how it all gets paid for.
rules are rules until changed..the debate will never end because it's not seen for the simplicity of what it's meant to be..
a big part is emerging yourself
to the point you have done the homework as they ask..when you ask the Masters that test you,
 
Organizations grow through praise and criticism. Never be reluctant to tell the ABS what you think about what they are doing, the honest criticism or question is a valuable asset to the organization and if they take the time to understand and seek to acknowledge the issues they will continue to grow as will their immage to the world of knives.
 
m l williams said:
The no damascus rule is a good rule for the JS applicants. When you ask the panel to look at a piece of damascus; too many variables come into play. Such as; is the etch too deep, too shallow, is it dirty, good contrast? are the welds perfect, any blisters? It goes on. Many; not all by any means; but many applicants can't see the small nuances that make it good stuff. So many of the guys can not understand that perfect damascus doesn't count for beans in the JS room if you can't do a crisp, clean carbon blade.
mike
Click to expand...


Actually, that's the reason I was given for the no damascus in the Journeyman submission knives rule. The fact that it takes more talent to do a properly finished plain carbon steel blade. With a damascus blade, you can probably hide a few things, finish wise.
 
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