ABS Testing???

ryan9977

ryan9977

Joined
Feb 16, 2006
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hello all.....ok i am in no way trying to bash the abs....just to find out what people think.....as far as testing procedures in the abs-there is the bend test....the rope and cuting the 2 by 4......i understand what the tests are supposed to accomplish i think at least......i have heard quite a few people say that they would not necessarily want a blade like this to actually "use"......my understanding is that when you are able to produce a blade that can pass these tests that you have control over your heat treating methods and everything else that goes into forging a blade......now my question is-

do you think that these tests should be changed?.....are there other tests that you think should be included?.....would you want a blade that passes the test to use?-if not why would you want those tests.....shouldn't they incorporate a blade that is of "high performance"........again i am not trying to open a can of worms here.....i like what the abs does and appreciate all of the hard work all of you guys do.....my main question i guess is-why use a blade for the test that you wouldn't want in the field or doesn't perform the best?......ryan
 
I think the test is easy and good enough to demonstrate the maker has at least the basic heat treating control needed to make a performer blade. The differential heat treat will keep the blade from breaking if used as a prybar if your life depended on it but some makers will grind the test blade very thin so it will easily pass the bend test which IMO compromises the "hard use" ability of the blade. Besides that I see no reason any ABS blade wouldnt be excellent in the field. I really like the feel of using a soft back bowie/camp knife compared to the full hard blade. Its up to the maker to gain confidence by using his/her knives and make fine adjustments as a maturing bladesmith.
 
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thanks for the comments bruce.....again i have heard smiths say that they wouldn't wanna use a blade like tha in the field.....i thought that was a strange comment because i would think you would want a blade to bend before it breaks.....thanks again....ryan
 
I think it all depends on your intended use. As Bruce mentioned, it can be a joy to use a differentially heat treated blade as a camp knife or chopper. If you're going to be hard-using a knife, it may be beneficial to perform an edge quench, or at least a differential tempering.

However, if you're talking about an EDC or slicer, many times the edge quench isn't necessary, and in fact, a fully hardened blade may be preferred. After my oven tempering cycles, I typically torch temper the handles and spines on my knives with the blade in water to create a somewhat softer back and handle as opposed to an edge quench.

--nathan
 
The purpose of the ABS tests is to demonstrate your ability to control the forging and HT process to produce a desired set of parameters.
You are also required to produce five high quality finished knives that display your best abilities. These are not going to resemble the test blade at all.

As said, a knife should be made for the purpose it is intended to do. This requires a full understanding of the geometry of different blades,the characteristics of different steels, and the HT process. The proper combination of these elements can make the difference between a superb knife and a serviceable one.

The ABS is an organization dedicated to the preservation,study, perfection,teaching, and recognition of high quality hand forged knives.
Some people have argued that a stock removal knife is just as good. Indeed it is, with all the other things being done the same. However, the ABS is dedicated to Hand Forged Knives, and leaves the stock removal knives to other societies. Many (most all?) ABS smiths make stock removal knives, as well as forged blades.They are not, however, allowed to use them for ABS smith tests.

I have often noticed that many of those who decry the ABS testing have only made a dozen (or less) knives. Many ABS apprentice smiths, working on their Journeyman's knife, will make ten ( or more) blades to test to destruction. This will gain the skill and confidence to make the same knife again,with full expectation of it passing the test.

Stacy
 
Ryan,
I have heard of some smiths that have said that they do not use the same criteria for the knives they sell their customers as they did for their ABS performance test. Me neither, But ONLYfor my folders and very small fixed blades. The reason for that is that they will not be used for chopping or being beat through a chunk of wood with a baton. They are used mostly for materials that are definitely softer than steel.
For all my other knives, the ABS test for performance suits my requirements for a high performance blade. The amount of hardened blade should be, in my opinion, a minimum of 2/3 rds of the blade. This gives the customer a knife that will last a long time. It bothers me to see a blade that is 1.25" wide and a .25" hamon.
During the time that I participated in the ABS cutting competitions, all my blades were heat treated the very same as my test blades. The difference being in the geometry of the blades. I used a lot thinner blades for competition. A thin blade cuts "through" easier that thicker blades. The edges are at an optimum for; no chips, no rolling, no deformation, and being disqualified. I did temper one at a slight 15 degrees less than I usually did for some testing. Jerry Fisk used it in a cutting demo since I couldn't attend. It had "micro chips" on the edge. This inferred to me that the temp I was using was pretty well spot on. They will Rc @ 57 and the steel is 52100. The same as I used in all my performance tests for the ABS certifications.
"If" you make a knife that will pass the ABS performance tests, then I would have no problem using the knife with a confidence in its ability to hold an edge and knowing it to be at or very near its optimum level of heat treat.
You may realize that all steels are not created equal in edge holding ability. This is due to the elements that have been added to help it perform better for its intended purposes. This may have resulted in some smiths not likeing the performance of their knives with the slightly softer Rc numbers. There is also some steels that will resist chipping at higher Rc numbers. I work mostly with 52100 and have tried to always get the better performance out of it. In all steels, there is a trade off between the desirable goals of the knife.
What I would suggest is that you work your knives and see what you find to be the best tempering temperture. After that, you may have it tested by some one and get the Rc number. You may be surprised and you may not. Kind of depends on how you do it. :)
It is said that some that are very knowlegable in Japanese blades can tell you who made it by looking at the hamon of the knife. Their technique will be visible in the effects of the forging and hardening of the blade. Kind of scary, ain't it?
 
thanks fo rthe info ray!....i appreciate it.....i'm not making blades yet...well i'v made a few but am still working on building my shop.....i was just curious on the test knives because i have heard a few smiths sort of talk down about them....well not talk down about them but just sort of state that they are not the best for performance....i guess in the end everyone has their own view of performance.....thanks....ryan
 
".....i was just curious on the test knives because i have heard a few smiths sort of talk down about them....well not talk down about them but just sort of state that they are not the best for performance....i guess in the end everyone has their own view of performance....."

I guess that is why I placed in the top or won most of the cutting contests that I was in (After I had help on my heat treat method). :)

Actually, the smiths may be making knives for a different use or may not even be using the same steel that they used to test with. I always figured that you should test with the best steel you can and learn it.

Good luck in your knife making endeavor and hopefully, every day will bring you a bit more wisdom. Always, "Consider the source of your information and and evaluate it according to your needs". :)
Ray Kirk
www.rakerknives.com
 
When I did my performance test with Don Hanson, I did everything I could do to make a knife that would DEFY the performance test - not just PASS it.
I was successful in doing so.
When I build my own personal Bowie for my "Bug-Out-Bag", it will be made just like the ones I used to test with.
There are different ways to PASS that test, but I stand by the way I did mine.
I didn't take any short cuts with making my test blade.
 
I like a full quench blade, even on a big knife. I will draw the tang and spine 3 times to a dark blue, even going into gray. If you nail the heat treat, these blades will bend to 90 degrees, but you will need a big cheater bar to bend them.
 
wow thanks guys....you know i am always in awe of how willing you guys are to share....you are top knifemakers...master and hourneyman smiths.....karl-it reminds me of the thread you started to thank everyone.....i really gotta say thanks to you.....all of you guys help everyone....i mean i have made 3 knives in my life...i just hope one day i reach your level so i can pass along all of my information....ryan:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
Bill,
I can't believe you need a cheater bar to bend it. :) (Your awful strong)
Glad to see you here
 
ryan9977 said:
wow thanks guys....you know i am always in awe of how willing you guys are to share....you are top knifemakers...master and hourneyman smiths.....karl-it reminds me of the thread you started to thank everyone.....i really gotta say thanks to you.....all of you guys help everyone....i mean i have made 3 knives in my life...i just hope one day i reach your level so i can pass along all of my information....ryan:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Click to expand...

Hey, I completely agree with you. I have my opinions and my experiences, but hearing from the depth of talent we have here on bladeforums is a great experience that's hard to get anywhere else. I hope someday years from now to be able to make knives that could sit on a table next to some of these guys and not look like total trash! Guess I need to get out to the shop more often :D.

--nathan
 
As has been mentioned, the performance testing portion of ABS JS/MS testing is not so much about the blade, but more about the Bladesmith. The tests are designed to evaluate the understanding of, and the control the Bladesmith has over the material.

The argument as to if a blade should be fully quenched or edge quenched will always be there, simply due to personal preferences.

As for myself, I prefer the edge quenched/differentially heat treat blade for a user. When I utilize that method of heat treating, it gives me much more latitude creating the blade. I can control how stiff or limber the blade will be, and give it a host of other characteristics that I could not if the same blade were fully hardened. Thats not to say I don't fully harden some blades....I do. Each has its place in my shop, depending on the given blade and its intended uses.

If I were building myself a multi-purpose or camp type knife, it would be differentially heat treated. I personally would rather have a blade that if bent, could be straightened (with a rock if necessary) and keep using it, versus a fully hardened blade that if pressed to the breaking point....I would only have two (or more) pieces of steel that would not be of much use.
I had to smile when Bruce mentioned that its "easy" to make a blade that will pass the performance tests for the ABS.....I can remember a time when it was not so easy, and it drove me nuts, until I gained enough knowledge of steel and heat treating to make it work....then it became easy! :)
 
It is always easier "When you Know How". Morning Ed.
The key is to gain the knowledge needed to make the knife desired for its intended use. As in all things, it is definitely easier when you know how. I didn't say "Easy" because that is when you start to be lax and mistakes start to occur.
Have a great day.
Ray Kirk
 
I did say "easy" didnt I. I too remember trying to figure out how to get consistant results with the heat treating. One blade worked OK when the next one cracked or seemingly wasnt hard at all. That was back when there were no experienced makers or internet to help me but here on this forum of ours theres no reason anybody cant be walked through it. It takes several failed attempts to start to understand what is going wrong and develop a system that works.
Tip: start with one steel and learn it well. I had mystery metal everywhere and wondered why I couldnt be consistant. Buy your steel from a reliable source and buy enough to make allot of blades so you can test several of them to destruction. You will soon see how easy it is to make a blade to pass the JS test.
Tip: Talk to Ed Caffrey. He walked me through most of what I know about heat treating blades. Thanks Ed!
 
I like some of the ideas on this thread, but I don't think that there is any clear single "official statement" in any of the publications from the A.B.S concerning the intent, purpose, and meaning of "the test",... is there?

It is kind of confusing...
 
As has been stated, I really get the impression that the ABS meant that test as a measure of the smith rather than a measure of the knife. The analogy I most often use is that of testing for ranking in the martial arts. In the dojo to get your next belt you will do very rigid and stylized step by steps (one step sparring, katas etc…) that will seem more like posing and dancing than any form of combat. This is required for the judges to get an idea of how good you have mastered the technique. However if you decide to move the same way on the street while being mugged you may or may not live to regret it!

I believe everybody should be able to make or heat treat a knife in any fashion that they wish or the market will allow without it being judged as right or wrong. However, working off from bad information is never a good thing so I think that it is safe to say that it is better if the maker and the customer have the facts about what is actually accomplished with the methods. Differentially hardened blades can be aesthetically pleasing and are worth it for the artistic hamon aspects; they will have a higher ductility and increased toughness on the spine. This will however be at the expense of much of the over all strength. The differentially tempered blade will have a better overall strength with less of an increase in ductility and toughness in the spine, and less chance of fine pearlite in the cutting edge. The fully quenched blade will have the highest strength, very little ductility and whatever toughness the alloy and tempering schedule imparts, and with good control over final edge hardness. Of course none of the above will have any effect at all on the stiffness of the blade, which is determined entirely on the grinder; that is just the way it works.

The edge quenched blade will have is usefulness decreased as it takes a set under a much lighter load but will not break (if everything is done right). The fully hardened blade will be useless when subjected to a load perhaps eight to ten times what it takes to bend the edge quenched blade, and it breaks. The differentially tempered blade is somewhere between maximum strength with non-ductile failure and maximum ductility with non brittle failure.
 
thanks fo rthe further responses....kevin-i appreciate the martial arts reference....i studied for a while and have a better understanding now.....when i do get my shop finished i already have a big pile of 1084 to try out....thanks to everyone's advice here i figured it was best to start with that steel.....ryan
 
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