Acceptable Flaws on High-Dollar Customs?

Megalobyte

Megalobyte

Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Messages
2,761
I recently saw a $2,000 Jerry Corbit custom folder, truly a beautiful knife. However, i was surprised to see on such a nice, ornate knife, a significantly off-center blade. The blade was not perfectly centered in the handle when in the closed position, the tip clearly leaning toward one side of the handle. I have yet to see a Microtech that does not have a perfectly centered blade, i would think that for $2,000, a maker, one as well known and respected as Corbit, would be able to make sure flaws of that sort never leave his shop. Aside from this admittedly minor flaw, the knife was absolutely breathtaking, as pretty as a knife can be.

Am i being too picky, is a well centered blade not something to be worried about on a fancy folder? I also saw a high-end Pease with a slightly off center blade, a Centofante as well, and these are both masters of knifemaking. I know that in all liklihood, Jerry would fix the problem if the knife was sent to him, but i guess my question becomes, are there certain types of flaws that are acceptable, even on the very high-dollar fancy knives? Are my standards too high? Again, i just cant help but think that if Microtech can do it for $200, certainly it can and should be done equally well for $2,000. Thoughts?
 
It's my experience that custom knives are liable to all of the flaws that factory knives are subject to having. Often, the high price of custom pice is due to materials used like MOP, stag, ivory, etc and embellishments like file work. Other customs seem to be high priced primarily due to the maker's reputation and the level of demand for his work. Ideally, a maker should have all the high end touches and provide excellent fit and finish. THe reality, however, is that knife makers are human and from time to time theyproduce knives with noticeable faults. In my opinion, anything that a buyer finds inadequate, he should feel free to request that it be corrected.
 
There is no good reason (except if this problem occurs on a secondary market piece, in which case the problem could have occurred after the maker delivered the original "perfect" knife) for such a problem. Makers are human, yes. Hand made objects are not perfect, yes. But no competent and consciencious maker should allow an obviously flawed piece to leave his or her shop. Some have done it agains their better judgement and lived to regret it.

John
 
When you say "highend" is it striclty an art knife or could it be an expensive user. I have spoken to a well known maker who has made a similar observation about "high end" knives. Specifically art knives, but users were mentioned. He expressed great disapointment that some very talented artist would let things like that slip past because the knife was an art peice and not meant to be used. An observation I have made is along the same lines. A known maker puts out a knife of poor quality, but people will let it slide becuase of the makers name. If you buy a handmade or custom knife and you aren't satisfied with the quality, you should let the maker know.
 
Originally posted by Dirk
A known maker puts out a knife of poor quality, but people will let it slide becuase of the makers name.
Click to expand...

Amen Dirk.

I think that by all means a custom maker should be held to higher fit and finish standards and have seen some big name makers putting out sub standard work from time to time.

I have a few things that I base any knife on, they would be:
  • Well selected materials (eg. no visible cracks in the titanium)
  • Vertical/lateral blade play
  • Lock-up
  • Blade should be mostly centered, even when pivot is tightened
  • Mostly even grind lines (I can live with the minor ones)

I can feel for makers because I have made things by hand for sale in the past. I am also an avid woodworker and craftsman. But there are some things that are so obvious that there is no excuse for them.

I can love with most other flaws but the ones above should always be perfect.

When I get 2 or 3 examples of a knife that does not meet the above criteria I won't go back to them. I have to questions whether or not they are actually seeing the knives they "make" or if they just don't care about their work anymore.

Am I picky? Sure am but I'm also the one with the money and these things are not cheap :D :)
 
Megalobyte,
You didnt mention if you saw the knife in Jerry's possession. It's very possible someone else off centered the blade by messing around with the pivot screw or some other way. I did it myself on a custom that was well centered when I got it but when I decided I had to adjust the pivot it moved off center.
Just a thought.
 
I went to the Knife Makers Guild show last month. Obvioulsy everyone there was a custom maker/dealer. To be quite honest the quality level of quite a few of the makers was iffy. I will not name names but alot of the knives had scales and bolsters that were loose. When you held the knife the bolster and scale squirmed in your hand. I have a MT DA LCC that is supposed to have a moveable bolster and it is rock solid.
Another thing I noticed was alot of the liner locks only slightly engaged the blade. The liners were so anodized they felt like plastic and the head of the liner was only a quarter engaged on the blade, basically catching the corner. Not good on a 600.00 knife!

I will praise Tom Anderson and some others for having flawless high value knives.

From my experience it's about fifty fifty in terms of quality when comparing Custom makers to High End Production knives. Microtech does make some duds and to a lesser extent CRK. But I saw some Big names with more than one "iffy" knife. But when the custom guys do it right WOW!!!!!!!!
 
I think an "expensive knife" should have a sharp blade, flawless function and fit and finish.

That is not always the case

Many high dollar knives are more decorative than utilitarian ... they are meant to be admired and not used.

Many people happily collect such objects for their beauty alone and could care less about their functionality.

To each their own
 
I think that small imperfections on benchmade or handmade knives are to be expected. Obvious flaws are not something that I would consider to be acceptable at all. I would send any knife that exhibited these flaws back to the maker that I got it from.

If I picked up the knife on the secondary market, the type of flaw would determine what I would expect from the maker. If it was obviously something that happened in manufacture I would hope the maker would repair it under warranty. If it was something that could have been done by the previous owner I would expect to pay to have the problem corrected.

No way would I just live with a knife that I considered to be flawed. Who the maker was would not matter. There is no way I would let anything slide because it was a well known maker.


Edited because I left a word out.:rolleyes:
 
So, to all who responded, first, thanks, next, is a slightly off center blade, noticable only because you can see the blade's tip leaning towards one side of the handle, but not ALL the way over mind you, its not rubbing either side, is this a minor imperfection to be expected and accepted on a handmade object, or something i should not accept?

I must point out in all deference to Corbit, first, the knife i saw may very well have been tinkered with after it left his shop. I have no way of knowing. But, i will say this, the small flaw aside, this knife was so beautiful, words fail me, truly gorgeous, and maybe its BECAUSE the thing is such a work of art that any flaw is that much harder to take. I dont know.

I would bet that there are many collectors who would have never even noticed the slightly off center blade. Im wondering if maybe the type of knife matters. For example, a quality handmade tactical/utility folder needs to be very rugged and robust, and things like centered blades do affect how the knife will function, especially if the knife is put to hard use, any flaws in workmanship will surface, whereas on a pure art knife, which is never meant to be used, the centering of the blade may be less important and acceptable if off slightly, since the main purpose of the knife is not to be strong and rugged, but rather to look good, which clearly it can without a perfectly centered blade. One need only see that Corbit to see this is true.

Again, i dont know, but im appreciating all of the responses. Thanks.
 
If it is not at least as good as a factory piece I am not buying it. I expect variation among knives, no two custom knives can be identical (only a machine can do that), but each knife should be correctly fitted, aligned, and polished. There is absolutely no excuse for drifting grind lines, sloppy welds, or poor materials on a high end knife, especially if the thing is primarilly intended for display. I can accept it on a basic user knife since it is going to be beaten out of shape anyway,but, not on a named collectible.

n2s
 
I don't buy knives as collectibles so I can't comment on that front. If I did though, the same rules would apply. If you can't master the basics you shouldn't be making high end art knives.

About the pivots, I feel the blade should not rub or touch under any circumstances, and that includes me tightening the pivot. If the holes are aligned with each other and square the blade should not move off center when tightened. I like my pivots tight, so i invariably tighten them, the blade should stay where it starts.

With that said, I will allow for a knife to be off center as long as it does not affect operation, including rubbing. Does it annoy me, yes but if it's a little off and everything else is fine then I'm fine.

Things add up though, if the blade is off and scales are not milled properly I don't buy it.
 
I've had the same feelings on fixed blades. You go from one ABS MS to another, and the level of quality varies. I remember seeing a couple bowies by an ABS MS - not one of the household names though - where the scales were not fitted perfectly.

Sometimes it feels like on some pieces most of the value is into the materials and embellishments, but the fit is hurried...
 
Hello Mega,

Specifically on the Corbit folder I would recommend the owner return the knife to Jerry. The blade could be off center for various reasons including simply a loose pivot.

Larry
 
Not all knifemakers are craeted equal and not all knifemakers have the same skills.

There is not a Custom folding knife on the market made to the precision level of a Microtech, Speedtech, TiKnives or Chris Reeve Sebbie. If precision is your only (or most important) guideline for purchasing a custom, I think you will be better served by a shop that produces their knives with $500,000-$1,000,000 worth of equipment.

With that being said, a custom knife has the ability to be uniquely designed to suit the owner and truly be one of a kind. With 99% of the "hand" makers out there you may sacrifice some precision, but gain artistic value in spades. If that is an acceptable tradeoff, a custom is for you.

As far as ABS Mastersmiths go, Jerry Fisk, Harvey Dean, Mike Connor, Roger Massey, Jim Crowell, and Ron Newton can make a knife that is so clean a flaw cannot be detected by the average high-end collector.

However all Mastersmiths are not created equal. In a world with 80 or so Mastersmiths, the list above is truly quite small.
For JS Smiths, Fitch and Russ Andrews can come pretty close to the guys above for less dinero.

Custom knives are a tradeoff between beauty and precision.
The more you pay does not guarantee you either.

Les?
 
Originally posted by Anthony Lombardo
There is not a Custom folding knife on the market made to the precision level of a Microtech, Speedtech, TiKnives or Chris Reeve Sebbie.
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Hate to disagree with you, but I do.

I have owned multiples many times over of the knives you list with the exception of speedtech and none of them is as precise as the knives I own from Mike Obenauf. The Sebenza being the closest.

Even the Sebs have varying degrees of precision. Lock bars that engage at different parts of the tang out of the box would be the easiest to point out. I'm a confirmed Sebenza nut and addict so don't lump me in the anti Seb crowd.

I've had TiKnives with off center blades that rub, play in the blade and loose screws.

I've had MT's with stripped frame screws. Inadequate locks and blade play.

I personally do not believe the equipment makes the knife. The person running or programming the equipment makes the knife.

I have currently 8 knives from Mike Obenauf and have owned 3 more. Every one of them was made with identical precision. Can I find minor things with them, some yes, some no but precision wise he's got it licked.

To be honest, I can't say that about any other folder makers I've had multiple pieces from (which is probably 15-20), maybe Reese Weiland and Peter Marzitelli. For fixed blades Neil Blackwood is a human CNC machine, never seen a bad grind line on a Blackwood.

Part of the problem with the forums is people don't usually discuss how they really feel about specific makers for fear of getting jumped by supporters or making the maker upset. It's also good etiquette not to name names IMO.

You really have to buy a ton of knives from a large sampling of makers to decide for yourself who makes knives you're happy with.

Have fun :)
 
If you are willing to spend thousands of dollars on a custom knife, then why should it have any flaws? You woldn't buy a watch that didn't keep time well. A flaw on an expensive knife is like having a nylon band on a rolex. With this said why does Phil Hartsfield knives sell for big dollars with a terrible finishes? I can't think of any other maker that has this type of finish on their knives. If I was a customer I would find these finishes unacceptable. You are paying for a makers time, attention to detail and fit and finish.
 
Chad,

You can believe whatever you like.

I will disagree anyway ;)

To help illustrate my point, take 10 Sebenzas. take them all apart, put the parts in a big bucket and then assemble 10 new knives out of those parts. They will all work acceptably. That is precision. Same with a Microtech, Speedtech, yadda yadda.

Mike is a talented maker. His knives are what they are because every one has attention to detail. However if you measure his blades, bolsters, scales, etc. I guarantee you will find each of them are a bit different in some aspect and that they wouldn't pass the above test (Even if it is ridiculous).

Anyway, as far as precision goes, I should have explained my self better.

Striper, Phill Hartsfield has fooled a lot of people but he never fooled me either. You don't always get what you pay for!

Fit and Finish, smoothness of action, symmetry of parts/shape. These are things that make a knifemaker great. Some are still searching for various pieces of the puzzle.
 
Originally posted by Anthony Lombardo
...To help illustrate my point, take 10 Sebenzas. take them all apart, put the parts in a big bucket and then assemble 10 new knives out of those parts. They will all work acceptably. That is precision. Same with a Microtech, Speedtech, yadda yadda.....
Click to expand...

I agree with your above statement, I just have a different definition of precision.

I think precision would be measured on the finished product, IMO what you described is repeatability and is what's boring about production knives and attracts me to customs.

Anthony & Striper,
I won't get into the arguments of what's worth the money or not, plus I've never owned one of Phil's knives. But I won't begrudge him of the price he gets, people are buying them.

Just like I've never seen the value in Fred Perrin's work but others love it and his pieces sell very well.
 
I agree about the 10 Sebenza's, but big deal when your talking about custom's! No disrespect intended and i love Sebbie's too! hehe

I don't care at all about putting taking two customs apart and trying to put them together let alone 10.

Custom's are handmade to order one at a time on most part, some custom knifes like Butch's Vipers if you took two apart and tried to put them back together you would be way out of luck, that's what i like about them, there all one of a kind that way, works of art to me.

Some Van Gogh's sell for over 100 million dollars, there not perfect by any means!

James
 
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