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Acceptable Flaws on High-Dollar Customs?
- Thread starter Megalobyte
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Somebody likened a fancy custom knife to a Van Gough, and i guess there is something to that. Im sure all great paintings have a few unintentional brushstrokes, a little spatter here or there, any number of unintentional imperfections, and yet no one would say theyre not works of high art, or feel they would be made better by redoing those areas with small flaws. In a sense, the imperfections do add to the individuality of the piece, the human touch, and one can argue that what makes the high-end art knives appealing is the very fact that they are HAND made, and therefore, in general, cannot really be as perfect as one made by the best machines. Sure, most Microtechs will have a well centered blade, but are they art? Can you even compare a MT with a centered blade to a fully dressed Corbit without one? One is just a knife, and one is art, that happens to resemble a knife. 
Having said all that, i still think i'd want the damn blade centered!
I hate being a perfectionist, its often painful and frustrating to say the least.
Having said all that, i still think i'd want the damn blade centered!
I hate being a perfectionist, its often painful and frustrating to say the least. 
- Joined
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Fossil-Boy,
That was an excellent post!!!
That is why I collect handmade custom knives and not souless gray turds.
Precision is just part of the package!
That was an excellent post!!!
That is why I collect handmade custom knives and not souless gray turds.
Precision is just part of the package!
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2001
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- 1,917
I don't mean to be critical, just to post my own opinions and experiences.
"In a sense, the imperfections do add to the individuality of the piece, the human touch, and one can argue that what makes the high-end art knives appealing is the very fact that they are HAND made, and therefore, in general, cannot really be as perfect as one made by the best machines."
I agree with the first part of what you said, but disagree with the second. Specifically, I find ONLY hand work can produce the kind of near perfection that I strive for as a maker. Machines can do it faster, and more accurately for certain unsophisticated lines and angles, but nothing can replace the hand of the maker for certain aspects of a truly outstanding blade.
John
"In a sense, the imperfections do add to the individuality of the piece, the human touch, and one can argue that what makes the high-end art knives appealing is the very fact that they are HAND made, and therefore, in general, cannot really be as perfect as one made by the best machines."
I agree with the first part of what you said, but disagree with the second. Specifically, I find ONLY hand work can produce the kind of near perfection that I strive for as a maker. Machines can do it faster, and more accurately for certain unsophisticated lines and angles, but nothing can replace the hand of the maker for certain aspects of a truly outstanding blade.
John
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Depending upon the price you end up paying, and the materials used in the custom, there are some minor flaws acceptable to me.
*The blade should be centered
*the operation should be smooth, unless the pivot is tightened way to hell
*there should be NO movemnt vertical or horizontal
*grind lines can be off a bit, but 1/8" is noticable
*scales/bolsters should be near perfect in fit. The finish can be off a bit, because most of us put something on the scales anyways.
*there should be no noticable gaps in the final product.
thats just my idea, I could be wrong...
*The blade should be centered
*the operation should be smooth, unless the pivot is tightened way to hell
*there should be NO movemnt vertical or horizontal
*grind lines can be off a bit, but 1/8" is noticable
*scales/bolsters should be near perfect in fit. The finish can be off a bit, because most of us put something on the scales anyways.
*there should be no noticable gaps in the final product.
thats just my idea, I could be wrong...
I typed a long response to this thread yesterday, and, the server was busy when I posted it and it got lost. I hate when that happens.
There are always flaws. The more experience and training you have in looking at knives, the faster you can spot them-after a while, it becomes second nature. Flaws in custom knives fall into many categories-ranging from major to insignificant, with the category varying from knife to knife. That is, the set of acceptable flaws for a folder will be different than for a fixed blade.
And, everyone has their own criteria for what is acceptable and what isn't. I look at the plunge first. If it's not perfect, I'm done.
For someone else, it might be the grind, or, the handle. Vampyrewolf mentioned grinds to within 1/8". That's his tolerance zone. My zone isn't that big.
Some flaws greatly detract from the overall knife-these are sale breakers. Others are perfectly acceptable. The issue is how the flaw affects the costomers perception of the knife. Does he say "Man, I can't be believe you got those grinds so even!", or does he say "Did you know that the grinds aren't the same on this knife?"
If a maker is doing their best work on a knife that is appropriate to their skill level, and charging a reasonable price, then things tend to balance out.
For the problem that was mentioned in the start of this post, I think it would have been appropriate to contact the maker first-my bet is that it's an adjustment issue and can be taken care of.
Lastly, regarding the "art" aspect, mentioned by Anthony-Yes, I agree. There are knives that transcend their flaws-that seem somehow better because they have intangeable elements that only a handmade knife can have. A while back, I had a customer come to my table and pick up a knife. She smiled, and said "I don't need another knife. I just came here to look, but, I simply can't put this knife down. I must buy it!"
These are the knives that us makers remember the most.
There are always flaws. The more experience and training you have in looking at knives, the faster you can spot them-after a while, it becomes second nature. Flaws in custom knives fall into many categories-ranging from major to insignificant, with the category varying from knife to knife. That is, the set of acceptable flaws for a folder will be different than for a fixed blade.
And, everyone has their own criteria for what is acceptable and what isn't. I look at the plunge first. If it's not perfect, I'm done.
For someone else, it might be the grind, or, the handle. Vampyrewolf mentioned grinds to within 1/8". That's his tolerance zone. My zone isn't that big.
Some flaws greatly detract from the overall knife-these are sale breakers. Others are perfectly acceptable. The issue is how the flaw affects the costomers perception of the knife. Does he say "Man, I can't be believe you got those grinds so even!", or does he say "Did you know that the grinds aren't the same on this knife?"
If a maker is doing their best work on a knife that is appropriate to their skill level, and charging a reasonable price, then things tend to balance out.
For the problem that was mentioned in the start of this post, I think it would have been appropriate to contact the maker first-my bet is that it's an adjustment issue and can be taken care of.
Lastly, regarding the "art" aspect, mentioned by Anthony-Yes, I agree. There are knives that transcend their flaws-that seem somehow better because they have intangeable elements that only a handmade knife can have. A while back, I had a customer come to my table and pick up a knife. She smiled, and said "I don't need another knife. I just came here to look, but, I simply can't put this knife down. I must buy it!"
These are the knives that us makers remember the most.
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rj martin> I just said that 1/8" is noticable... I never said that was my tolerance range. It would have some varience depending upon the size being worked on, but I prefer them to be such that I have to pick it up and look closly to notice the difference... I didn't get a 95% in machining for being out 0.02" every project. I can be within 0.005"(laser caliper) on my work, if I'm paying for a high quality knife, I expect close tolerances and clean grinds. If I notice the grinds are off or too high, I just keep on walking past the table(I've seen a few like this, from about 3' away).
I have been looking at all the replies and noticed that no one cares if the knife will hold an edge or cut very well. Is this quality not considered when chosing an art knife? Just wondering about it is all. I can understand that a high end art knife is not to be used because of the lowering of the value of the knife. NIB is the goal of most that seem to invest in the art knives.
What is the priority of cutting when buying an art knife? Just curious.
What is the priority of cutting when buying an art knife? Just curious.
not2sharp
Platinum Member
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Raker,
I don't think there is an easy answer for you. All knives should be able to cut. The design and execution of high end knives should be clean and sound. The problem comes in when we cross from high end to art. Art seems to be a catch all, and not all knifelike things can cut. Some don't even have a real edge, and others are not tempered at all. When you look at something like the King Tut dagger reproduction, which was made from solid gold, would you actually expect gold to hold a working edge?
Perhaps at some point we will need to distinguish knives from knife shaped art objects.
n2s
I don't think there is an easy answer for you. All knives should be able to cut. The design and execution of high end knives should be clean and sound. The problem comes in when we cross from high end to art. Art seems to be a catch all, and not all knifelike things can cut. Some don't even have a real edge, and others are not tempered at all. When you look at something like the King Tut dagger reproduction, which was made from solid gold, would you actually expect gold to hold a working edge?
Perhaps at some point we will need to distinguish knives from knife shaped art objects.
n2s
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Hi Ray, good question. I can only speak for myself of course, but to me, the really fancy, high-end art knives arent meant to be users, thats not to say you cant use them, im sure some people do, but i really dont think theyre made with hard use in mind. My Corbit folder has a nicely finished, yet fairly dull edge, it was actually blued AFTER it was sharpened, again attesting to the knife's purpose, to look good and not necessarily function well. After all, what purpose would there be in bluing an edge meant for use?
So, that being the case, i guess edge retention is not super important on an art knife, however, since those who like art knives, like knives in general, and people who like knives want a knife with a good edge, some people will, by extension want a good edge on their art knife, just because a knife with a dull edge seems kind of silly, maybe even moreso if youre shelling out thousands.
I do know that a lot of people complian that their fancy customs came from the maker with a dull edge and needed immediate sharpening. Now of course, im not speaking of the handmade tactical/utility knives that DO generally come with a good edge, im speaking to the ultra-fancy, fully dressed folders whose mission in life seems to be something other than actual cutting, odd as it may seem.
So, that being the case, i guess edge retention is not super important on an art knife, however, since those who like art knives, like knives in general, and people who like knives want a knife with a good edge, some people will, by extension want a good edge on their art knife, just because a knife with a dull edge seems kind of silly, maybe even moreso if youre shelling out thousands.
I do know that a lot of people complian that their fancy customs came from the maker with a dull edge and needed immediate sharpening. Now of course, im not speaking of the handmade tactical/utility knives that DO generally come with a good edge, im speaking to the ultra-fancy, fully dressed folders whose mission in life seems to be something other than actual cutting, odd as it may seem.
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I think N2S hit the nail on the head. We do need to realize and acknowledge that there is a class of knife, so called "art knives", that are intended purely to be an object of art, that happens to look like a knife. It is designed and crafted to function as a work of art, a thing of beauty and aesthetic appeal, not as a cutting tool, even if it may take the form of a knife. It is an object of art, first and foremost, a knife second. I just looked at my new Corbit, it is pretty clear to me this knife was never meant to be used as a knife, its too ornate, and thus relatively fragile. Sure is pleasing to the eye though.
I kind of thought that was the way it was. I will probably never make too many "art" knives that wouldn't cut. It really isn't in my expertise at the present moment . The quillion dagger will probably be the main one and maybe a couple more just to see if I can still do it .
. The quillion dagger will probably be the main one and maybe a couple more just to see if I can still do it .
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Sorry for chiming in so late. I have been reading this thread and everyone here has valid points.
I have a small collection of knives by very well known makers. I can find flaws on all of them, just as I know exactly where the flaws are on my own.
As a maker I find myself looking at my end product and my eye goes right to the area that created trouble for me rather than knife as a whole. Brian May, former guitarist for the band Queen, once said in an interview that "No one trully creates in a vacuum"....I have found this true. By having knives of makers that you respect, it gives you a true gauge of where you are at in your own work, plus it provides a great avenue for improvement.
My opinion on this subject is that the term "flaw" is very relative. What exactly is a flaw? I have seen blades by Mastersmiths that were not exactly straight, small pits in the silver solder, a little epoxy showing here or there, slightwaves in the blade finish, etc. Are these flaws or are they "character"
Of course, I relate this to fixed blade knives. A folder can be very different because it is a mechanism and it has to work. On a fixed blade, as long as the guard or the handle isnt loose, the rest is pretty subjective.
I agree with Ray Kirk, cutting is most important.
Greg Covington
Bladesmith
I have a small collection of knives by very well known makers. I can find flaws on all of them, just as I know exactly where the flaws are on my own.
As a maker I find myself looking at my end product and my eye goes right to the area that created trouble for me rather than knife as a whole. Brian May, former guitarist for the band Queen, once said in an interview that "No one trully creates in a vacuum"....I have found this true. By having knives of makers that you respect, it gives you a true gauge of where you are at in your own work, plus it provides a great avenue for improvement.
My opinion on this subject is that the term "flaw" is very relative. What exactly is a flaw? I have seen blades by Mastersmiths that were not exactly straight, small pits in the silver solder, a little epoxy showing here or there, slightwaves in the blade finish, etc. Are these flaws or are they "character"
Of course, I relate this to fixed blade knives. A folder can be very different because it is a mechanism and it has to work. On a fixed blade, as long as the guard or the handle isnt loose, the rest is pretty subjective.
I agree with Ray Kirk, cutting is most important.
Greg Covington
Bladesmith
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This is a great thread.
Of course, I too agree with Ray Kirk and Greg Covington--a knife must cut! If a gun doesn't shoot, it is a toy, or a replica, or something. But it is not a gun. Same thing should apply to a knife. If it doesn't cut it is a toy, or a sculpture, or a replica--but certainly not a knife.
I also really liked what Greg wrote about flaws. My posts above were regarding glaring and fixable flaws. As far as very minor imperfections go, they are unavoidable. Many non-makers look at my work and see no flaws at all. But RJ Martin and Greg hit it right on the head--the better I get as a maker, the more I notice both my own flaws and those of others.
John
Of course, I too agree with Ray Kirk and Greg Covington--a knife must cut! If a gun doesn't shoot, it is a toy, or a replica, or something. But it is not a gun. Same thing should apply to a knife. If it doesn't cut it is a toy, or a sculpture, or a replica--but certainly not a knife.
I also really liked what Greg wrote about flaws. My posts above were regarding glaring and fixable flaws. As far as very minor imperfections go, they are unavoidable. Many non-makers look at my work and see no flaws at all. But RJ Martin and Greg hit it right on the head--the better I get as a maker, the more I notice both my own flaws and those of others.
John
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Just to throw in the $0.02 from a mechanical engr here... I don't agree with the precision analogy.
If you are comparing consistency of accuracy for interchangable parts, then that's one thing. And that is indeed something you do with machine made parts in production.
However, we all know knives are hand-made, and as such all parts are made to each unique knife. In a knife, parts are made to parts...there is no requisite for them to be interchangable with other knives.
As far as the question, I think it would have been better to bring it to the attention of the maker first, rather than all the eyes here.
Just my thoughts,
Nick
If you are comparing consistency of accuracy for interchangable parts, then that's one thing. And that is indeed something you do with machine made parts in production.
However, we all know knives are hand-made, and as such all parts are made to each unique knife. In a knife, parts are made to parts...there is no requisite for them to be interchangable with other knives.
As far as the question, I think it would have been better to bring it to the attention of the maker first, rather than all the eyes here.
Just my thoughts,
Nick
Hey Nick,
I didn't know you were a mechanical engineer! I thought you were a professional weight lifter by day and a knifemaker by night! So you mean to say that I couldn't just buy a Bowie blade from you and stick it on my dagger handle?
I have to agree with what RJ said - as you get more and more experienced with customs you begin to notice more subtle things with a knife. It also helps if you go to shows and get to handle and see a number of knives, and/or know people who are knowledgeable who can point things out. There is an internet purveyor who lives nearby and is willing to be brutally honest about any knives I bring by. It's not to be mean, or make me feel bad about my purchase. Much to the contrary, it help me see what went on while the maker was creating the knife, and it enables me to know what to look for in future purchases.
Or if you buy a knife from Nick, he'll be willing to pick it apart...after you pay for it
~Mitch
I didn't know you were a mechanical engineer! I thought you were a professional weight lifter by day and a knifemaker by night!
So you mean to say that I couldn't just buy a Bowie blade from you and stick it on my dagger handle? I have to agree with what RJ said - as you get more and more experienced with customs you begin to notice more subtle things with a knife. It also helps if you go to shows and get to handle and see a number of knives, and/or know people who are knowledgeable who can point things out. There is an internet purveyor who lives nearby and is willing to be brutally honest about any knives I bring by. It's not to be mean, or make me feel bad about my purchase. Much to the contrary, it help me see what went on while the maker was creating the knife, and it enables me to know what to look for in future purchases.
Or if you buy a knife from Nick, he'll be willing to pick it apart...after you pay for it
~Mitch
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Chad,
Thanks for the compliment!! It really means alot!! I just want to know who told you about the computer cable plugged into my.............(_!_)
LOL!!!! For me the grind is the greatest challenge. Once I'm happy with the grind, everything is USUALLY a piece of cake from there.Neil
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All I can say is, I've been absolutely disappointed by some of the knives produced by big name makers, and shocked that some lesser known guys can sell technically "better" knives for 1/3 the price. I think this is going to change in the future, as the younger guys become more appreciated by collectors. I'm not naming names, because I want to buy those knives while I can still afford them!
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I'm glad to see this thread because it's a subject that's been bugging me for a while. I don't know how many folding knives I've picked up only to see that the liner locking system doesn't work properly at all... I picked up one knife and simply closed it without even touching the liner, when the maker saw me doing that he mentioned he "might still have a little work to do on that one." Another big time maker herre in Europe had a $2000 folder which an acquantice of a friend bought. My friend, also a maker, said he had the knife in hand and noticed the blade had 3/8 inch play in the closed position! Ball dentent was in the wrong place on the blade...
Over here in Germany in the German language knife forum there was a big discussion regarding a well known North American maker from whom a buyer had directly ordered a folder, price almost $600. After a long wait the knife arrives with major blade wobble. When contacted about the problem the maker said send the knife back, I'll give you your money back, I have a waiting list and the next guy will take the knife! The buyer ended up having a friend shorten the pivot until the blade works... and so on and so on...
I don't understand why normal people who would take a jacket back to the Gap if the seams were wrong will often accept a POS knife with some lame excuse like "It's a hard use tool." etc. I have a workshop full of hard use tools from Snap On to Sears and all of the are made right! A hard use tool should really be made right to stand up to hard use...
OK, the point is well taken that no knife is "perfect." I have never made a knife which I couldn't improve upon.... but I don't send 'em out of the shop with obvious flaws or dangerous shortcomings.
I also dont's accept the arguement that "art knives" don't have to meet basic fit and functions standards. If they don't, don't sell the damn thing as a knife, sell as a paper weight that looks like a knife... but then I was never a fan of DEWAT firearms either. If it's a knife it should cut, wheteher or not the owner wants to really use it is always his or her choice, but the potential should be there.
For me, parts interchangeability isn't a consideration. Each knife is handmade one at a time. I don't ever really make the same knife twice.
I don't know if some Makers realize the damage done to their reputation by selling crap and thinking the buyer won't notice: more and more buyers ARE taking notice, and a lot of them are posting thier experiences in the net, where 1000s of people are reading them. I know there are quite a few well known makers whose knives I would no longer consider unless I have the chance to handle the knife first. Sure you can always send it back, but what a pain in the a**.
Over here in Germany in the German language knife forum there was a big discussion regarding a well known North American maker from whom a buyer had directly ordered a folder, price almost $600. After a long wait the knife arrives with major blade wobble. When contacted about the problem the maker said send the knife back, I'll give you your money back, I have a waiting list and the next guy will take the knife! The buyer ended up having a friend shorten the pivot until the blade works... and so on and so on...
I don't understand why normal people who would take a jacket back to the Gap if the seams were wrong will often accept a POS knife with some lame excuse like "It's a hard use tool." etc. I have a workshop full of hard use tools from Snap On to Sears and all of the are made right! A hard use tool should really be made right to stand up to hard use...
OK, the point is well taken that no knife is "perfect." I have never made a knife which I couldn't improve upon.... but I don't send 'em out of the shop with obvious flaws or dangerous shortcomings.
I also dont's accept the arguement that "art knives" don't have to meet basic fit and functions standards. If they don't, don't sell the damn thing as a knife, sell as a paper weight that looks like a knife... but then I was never a fan of DEWAT firearms either. If it's a knife it should cut, wheteher or not the owner wants to really use it is always his or her choice, but the potential should be there.
For me, parts interchangeability isn't a consideration. Each knife is handmade one at a time. I don't ever really make the same knife twice.
I don't know if some Makers realize the damage done to their reputation by selling crap and thinking the buyer won't notice: more and more buyers ARE taking notice, and a lot of them are posting thier experiences in the net, where 1000s of people are reading them. I know there are quite a few well known makers whose knives I would no longer consider unless I have the chance to handle the knife first. Sure you can always send it back, but what a pain in the a**.