Accidentally closing the Axis lock

Yojimbo

Yojimbo

Joined
Jul 14, 2002
Messages
147
The AFCK design has been a favorite of mine since it came out. I currently have a vintage 800S and now I'm looking at the BM 806D2. I've waited so long because I've been very satisfied with the old model and I felt the newer models didn't really offer any advantages.

I did some research here and I found a couple of threads where Chris Caracci, the AFCK designer, says he does not like the Axis lock because it was easy to unintentionally close. I couldn't find any details on exactly how it happens.

I recently handled a 806D2 and I couldn't figure out how it would close on accident. If you are using the sabre grip, hammer grip or even reverse grip how would your thumb slide the stud back to close the Axis lock? It may be possible when transitioning between grips but on the knife I handled the Axis lock was good and tight but smooth when I operated it.

I was wondering if anyone could fill me in on the details on how Mr. Caracci was able to "accidently" close the Axis Lock?
 
From my understanding, no one actually has any experience with the lock closing accidentally, but some have figured out how it "could" possibly happen. From all accounts, it seems like a safe lock. Go for it, I too will be buying an 806d2 this week.

Phil
 
I wouldn't worry about accidently closing the Axis lock. I think it would be much easier to release the liner lock in an aggressive "torque" situation.

Just my opinion, but I think most around here will give pretty high marks to the Axis lock's reliability and safety.

BTW, the 806D2 is an outstanding knife, and the new ones are shipping with bronze washers and are drilled for tip up/down, right/left carry.:)
 
From memory this wasn't due to torques or similar, but engaging the release accidently.

-Cliff
 
I think the potential problem was that in a saber grip, the thumb and forefinger might release the lock as the knife was being removed from something into which it had been thrust.
--Josh
 
Right, if you were to thrust into something solid enough to retain the knife, you could possibly pull back on the AXIS lock bar when you pulled back on the knife.
 
yeah, and probably you could accidently close a backlock when pushing down the locking bar with your thumb while playing with it. same thing works with a liner lock, which is the one that mr. caracci built into that knife in the first place. apart from that, you could also cause harm when you stick a fixed blade into something and than break it with a hammer. pretty dangerous stuff :rolleyes:

no seriously, you *could* do harm with so many things if one wanted to.
to me it seems as if there was just someone bashing a perfectly good design.

regards, cheez
 
Well, IIRC, the comical thing about that discussion (in the now-defunct forum), is that said discussion centered around a locking system that Chris never even handled. I am happy to be proven wrong if someone wants to dig up that thread.

It almost goes without saying that the liner-lock concept has been repeatedly raked over the coals here on BF as being a fairly "dangerous" design under "white-knuckle" conditions. It was always ironic to me that those threads were happening in parallel to Chris's forum where the liner lock was being promoted as being used by "real operators".

To go off topic a bit - I am looking forward to seeing threads on the Spyderco ball lock. It is essentially the same in principle as the Axis lock, but the ball system keeps the "trigger" recessed below the grip surface - making it virtually impossible to accidently trip the lock.
 
Originally posted by Yojimbo
I did some research here and I found a couple of threads where Chris Caracci, the AFCK designer, says he does not like the Axis lock because it was easy to unintentionally close. I couldn't find any details on exactly how it happens.
[...]

I was wondering if anyone could fill me in on the details on how Mr. Caracci was able to "accidently" close the Axis Lock?
Click to expand...

Okay, so now you've discovered the weakness of allowing an expert who has never actually tried out his theory, pontificating on what works and what doesn't. I followed the initial conversations very carefully, and unless there were some posts I didn't see, basically Caracci picked the knife up, declared there was a possible issue, and put it back down. Meanwhile, he's a huge fan of the liner lock, which actually does have tons of failures in actual use and can be made to fail relatively easily in testing. After I observed those threads, I decided I'd listen to Caracci about combat but not about specifics about knives.

Bash the lock which in practice is incredibly reliable, without actually testing it, and then talk up the lock that's been shown time and again to be very difficult to make reliable, in both real use and tests?

If I'm wrong about this, hopefully someone will point it out, and I'll apologize and withdraw my statements. But in the threads I saw, on Caracci's own forum, I was not at all impressed with the logic.

Joe
 
Since I last posted a couple of hours ago, I tried some thrusting with my Axis 806D2 and I find, in the standard saber-grip, my fingers don't even go near the Axis locking bar.

I really don't see this as an issue with the Axis lock. Of course, different grips and techniques could create different situations, so my observations may not be valid for all.
 
I remember that thread, and how many people began bashing the Axis lock because the "expert" said so....I believe that was before it came out that he was basing his statement on next to nothing.

I rate that right up there with people who say:

"That knife is crap and wont hold an edge. It will break if hit on a piece of wood at a 45 degree angle".

In response to that statement somebody might ask:
"Really, you must have tested the knife hard"

To which the person who called the knife crap might have to admit:
"Well, I have never seen the knife in person, but I could tell from a picture I saw"
 
After I observed those threads, I decided I'd listen to Caracci about combat but not about specifics about knives.

Amen Joe.

How about that Pendulum.........
 
When Joe Talmadge talks I listen.

And yet, I have suspected the Axis lock of easy inadvertent-closing from the beginning.
I like the paintbrush grip and I know some people who use the hammer grip; both of which could open an Axis lock in a draw cut combined with a quick reversal of direction.
 
Originally posted by Ken Cox
And yet, I have suspected the Axis lock of easy inadvertent-closing from the beginning.
Click to expand...

I actually had the same suspicions when I first saw it. Hopefully it's obvious that I don't have problems with someone saying they suspect the axis lock -- or any other lock -- is susceptible to this or that. And if they can actually describes tests they did which caused the lock to fail, I can decide for myself whether or not those tests apply to my usage. My irritation is at someone declaring something unsafe without actually having handled it ... and I was disappointed at the unquestioning responses. The way I remember it, no one actually argued with Caracci. I know I avoided it because it was his forum, and I didn't want to be the one to start a huge fight and be responsible for him leaving. Whether or not he actually knows anything about knife locks, I wanted him to stick around for the things he does know about.

Joe
 
Disclaimer: I'm commenting based on my sometimes faulty memory so I may be way off base here. I remember Caracci's initial comment about the possible accidental disengagement of the Axis lock; however, I thought he also later posted about his reconsideration on the matter--granted, it was not an endorsement for the Axis lock but, on the other hand, it was not an entirely negative opinion.

A Thought: By no stretch of the imagination am I a martial artist; however, I wonder if it is possible for the person on the opposite end of the knife in a grappling situation to maneuver his palm on the back of the blade and push forward (which is toward the back of the knife from the wielder's point of view) on the Axis lock buttons. This action could disengage the lock and cause the blade to fold onto the wielder's fingers.

Not trying to "dis" the Axis lock (I have a number of BMs that are frequently used by me as EDCs) I'm just interested in this discussion and in hearing the opinions of others on this matter.
 
I wonder how one would test an axis lock.

My first thought involves some sort of Spectra gloves and maybe making the thumb and index finger a little more tacky with rubber cement.
I assume that Spectra gloves would adequately protect the wearer/tester.
Perhaps putting tape on the edge would help.
Then I think the tester would try to find movements in slow motion, half speed and full speed that would somehow cause an inadvertent release.

By the way, I examined an 806D2 at my local knife retailer and I cannot remember a folding knife that impressed me to the same degree.
I especially liked the tip up/down right/left capability.
I would like to know if BM offers dummy screws to fill the holes and how dummy screws would affect the handleability.
 
i think the g10 axis knives are pretty hard to close, even when i want to, so i think that they are pretty safe, but if you were really concerned you could always grind down the axis bolt.

I think you might be more likely to see a failed omega spring, good thing they have two.

I like BM liner locks but the likely hood of them twisting and slipping is proabably more likly then accidentally closeing your AXIS.

Also keep in mind chris was promoting Emersons as the "Choice of operator types" and they probably make some not so great liner locks.

I like the Microtech microbar style liner lock since it is one of the few knives with a stiff enough handle to issolate the lock from twisting forces.
 
Looks like I opened up a can of worms!!!

Either way thanks to everyone for all the great replies, I'm learninig a lot!
 
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