Accidentally closing the Axis lock

Originally posted by Ken Cox
I wonder how one would test an axis lock...

Well, you have to test each individual knife before you have confidence in them, but I have conducted hundreds of hours of live blade cutting dummy training with my two 710s, a little less with an 806, and some with one of my 735s with no failures. This involves every grip and angle of attack. Accidents can always happen when you are training with live blades, but I have put in enough time with these knives to trust them pretty well.

The other alternative is one of the great Axis lock trainers. I believe both the 710 and the large Griptilian have blunt trainers available from Benchmade.

I should add that prior to training with any folder, I tape it to a stick and do every imaginable thing I can to get the lock to let go. This doesn't test cases where the person holding it might disengage the lock in use though.
 
Originally posted by Joe Talmadge
If I'm wrong about this, hopefully someone will point it out, and I'll apologize and withdraw my statements. But in the threads I saw, on Caracci's own forum, I was not at all impressed with the logic.

Joe

Chris and I have discussed this quite a bit. He was speaking theoretically, Joe. We both agree on one thing:

Anything that can be locked or unlocked maunually and intentionally, can be locked and unlocked accidentally. Every lock has its theoretical weak point.

A lot of operators are fans of liner locks simply because they've brought them out in hard training and ops and they didn't fail on them (talking about high-quality blades here not cheapos). If I had that experience with something, I'd rely on it, too. They usually stick with something that works for them -- that they have relied on over and over again (if it ain't broke, don't fix it). That's why the kaBar or USMC Fighting/Utility knife is still popular in military circles. It has worked -- often -- when it was needed to save lives. But we all know there are WAY better alternatives out there.

When you take stuff in a forum out of context or just beceause it IS text and not a person-to-person discussion, it can seem like pontificating when it's not. Chris and I have discussed just as much how liners can fail, how lockbacks can fail. The reason? Knowing the inherent weaknesses in any piece of equipment keeps you aware of how it could ruin your day rather than save it, and you adjust your technique accordingly.

Now, on the Axis lock, during a thrust in combat, whether to piece a body or pierce something to remove it (utility), under duress, at least two things could happen:

When the knife goes far enough into soft material or harder material such as body armor, the force against the lock could push it back and disengage it. Or, if you miss and slide along side material that catches the lock and pushes it back, same thing, and if the blade bumps into something it can close quick on your fingers. I tested this in controlled conditions, but it took a lot of effort to hit it just right and make it happen. However, it only takes once to cut all your fingers off. With frenzied multiple stabs, you might get through a few and on the next one, be watching your fingers fly off like spilled french fries. So, theoretically, it can happen, but the likelihood is what we all concern ourselves with. The Murphy's Law factor often happens in times of stress or combat, or just simply when we don't want it to happen. I've played with liner locks to see how they could fail, and lockbacks, too. That said, I personally feel the Axis lock is the best I've played with to date in terms of reliabiltiy.

So, the discussion is just dissecting things to make sure we know where things can go wrong, and compensate. Chris talked about disengagement of the lock, not failure through breakage.

That all said, my favorite and most trusted daily carry folder is my Benchamde 806D2 with the Axis lock. For me, it seems to be the least likely type of lock to accidentally release.

:D

~Brian.
 
One thing that can be done to reduce the likelihood of accidental Axis lock disengagements is to file the Axis pin and nuts down flush with the handle. This is easy to do and has no down sides to it. If you have a little mechanical ability you can remove the Axis pin and file work the heads for extra traction too.

168956-MVC-231F.JPG
 
Steve's a good tinkerer :)

Brian, the written statements appeared glib and dismissive -- if that's not the case in reality, great. I think Steve's solution addresses most of the theoretical objections to the axis, although 1. I've not been able to cause an axis failure, even when trying, by either inadvertent thumb engagement or by the material engagement Brian described, but 2. nevertheless, I wish Benchmade would just save us the trouble and trim and file the axis pin down a tad!

Joe
 
Joe,

I think what you saw from Chris, who is a pretty active kind of guy, was frustration at sitting down and having to type a lot. ;)

:D
 
Steve, that should be standard on all Axis locks! That would make me happier with them.

I just saw this topic and had to chime in. I have had the Axis lock close on me. It is basically as described by others. It wasn't from thrust or cut, but from transitioning the the knife to another grip. As I was moving my hand, my thumb made contact with the lock stud and released the blade. It started to close on my fingers, but I got everything stopped. This only happended one time and I wasn't able to duplicate it again. Because of that on freak incident, I am staying with liner locks, frame lock, IBL or whatevername you want to give them. I haven't had one close on me yet. Until that happens, I'm sticking with what I trust. By the way, the liner lock must be made by a maker or company that knows the right way to build them.

I was also able to get the SIFU and it's rolling lock to do the same thing, more than once.

Take it for what it's worth.
 
Originally posted by Steven Roos
Right, if you were to thrust into something solid enough to retain the knife, you could possibly pull back on the AXIS lock bar when you pulled back on the knife.

I don't know how Chris or you hold your knife, but in the sabre grip, my thumb is on the ridges, and my finger rests behing the choil. Neither one is even remotely able to activate the axis lock in that position.

BTW, Steve, could you give more details on how you fileworked those designs? What tools did you use? Were they manual, or powered?

TIA,

Mike
 
Beautiful mods on the 710 Steve.:D Now---the only thing left would be contoured scales--maybe ivory micarta??:cool:
 
I did it all by myself. :)

Hand tools except for an electic drill for the screw holes. Hack saw to rough profile, files to final profile, needle files for the decorative stuff. It is not as professional a job as it looks in those fuzzy photos, but it'll do. Thanks.
 
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