Advantage of 1095 vs carbide steels?

[Jamesh Bond]

Wasnt sure the best place to post this, but here we are.

In my neverending fantasizing for my next fixed blade, ive pretty much narrowed it down to a Ratmandu. Unbreakable, superior edge retention, and solid warranty.

But there are lots of other contenders out there. ESEE, Fehrman, Grayman, Bark River, etc.

The Ratmandu is actually the least expensive, next to ESSEE, but at a huge material upgrade. But i really like the ESEE 6 and Grayman Ground Pounder, both 1095.

Yes, eventually ill own them all. But the Rat is coming first, with the idea of "if you could only have ONE."

My question is this:

Considering the nearly equal cost and warranties, what valid reasons would there be for choosing 1095 over SR101?

The only one i could come up with is the lack of carbides in 1095 would allow for easier expedient sharpening, but thats it.

Anyway, give me some stuff to think about.

Thx.

 

[Shorttime]

1095 might be a little easier to re-sharpen. I have no personal experience with SR101, so I can't be sure.

 

[marthinus]

Buy what you like really. Swamp Rat does great heat treat on their SR101 as well as Rowen with ESSEE's 1095.

Buy what you like or else you will always wonder about your purchase.

 

[Davidfs]

I've never used sr101 much less sharpened it, but my understanding is that 1095 is not only quicker to sharpen, but a person with limited skill or sharpening resources can typically get a finer edge on the 1095 vs the sr101

 

[Twindog]

52100 (SR101) is an excellent knife steel. It has more alloys than 1095, which gives it a bit more kick. I think these steels are about the same toughness at any given Rc, but 52100 will hold an edge longer. Both are easy to sharpen, and both take a really nice edge.

 

[RX-79G]

1095 is a carbide steel. Since it has more carbon than it needs to make martensite, the rest of the carbon forms carbides. That's its advantage over lower carbon simple steels like 1080.

SR101 is common 52100 with a secret heat treat. 52100, 01, W2, 50100B (1095CV) and A2 are all going to be superior to 1095 in toughness without being obviously harder to sharpen. (Assuming equal quality heat treats and similar hardnesses.)

1095 is just the absolute cheapest carbide forming steel. It has no advantages over the higher alloy carbon steels.

Rowen may do an excellent quality heat treat on their 1095, but heat treating 1095 for a professional heat treater is not difficult, and it doesn't really get much from special extras like cryo. The cult of 1095 is a bit ridiculous - it's a machete steel. For ESEE prices you should get something a little bit nicer, IMO.

 

[C_Becker]

You do however get a decent to great (depending on knife) quality sheath with the ESEE knife, something you have to add to the cost of any Bussekin knife.

 

[Velitrius]

"The cult of 1095 is a bit ridiculous - it's a machete steel."

I had to laugh at that.

They're both machete steels really. But I have pocket knives in both steel as well. The custom slipjoint I'm currently carrying is in 1095.

I don't think there's a cult of 1095. There are those of us who know how it performs and are very happy with it.

Jamesh, for the knife style you are considering, both steels are going to do you just fine. Use other features to narrow it down for you.

 

[RX-79G]

"The cult of 1095 is a bit ridiculous - it's a machete steel."

I had to laugh at that.

They're both machete steels really. But I have pocket knives in both steel as well. The custom slipjoint I'm currently carrying is in 1095.

I don't think there's a cult of 1095. There are those of us who know how it performs and are very happy with it.

Jamesh, for the knife style you are considering, both steels are going to do you just fine. Use other features to narrow it down for you.

1095 is a quality steel, but it gets discussed as if it has properties lacking in higher alloy steels - as the OP referenced. It doesn't. It is an inexpensive steel that you will find used in everything from $10 butcher knives and machetes to high priced fixed blades. A great steel to make value priced knives. But if you are spending more than $50, maybe you could do better for the money spent. Other alloys offer better grain refinement, deeper hardening, increased toughness and/or better edge retention with essentially no downsides.

It isn't like O1 is expensive. The Mora laminates are O1 cored.


You can make a great knife out of 1095. You can make a great knife out of 1060, too.

 

[Velitrius]

Agreed, RX-79G. And I believe both of the makers he referenced makes a fine piece with their respective material.

I'm not saying that the 1095 piece will offer anything over the 52100, because it won't. However, I have absolutely no problem spending more than 50 bucks and ending up with a piece made of 1095, provided the maker knew what he was doing with the stuff. On the flip side, I would definitely pay a premium for an Ed Fowler piece in 52100, or a Hunter Martin machete even. But at that point, it isn't the steel anymore.

If I'm offered the choice between the examples Jamesh mentioned, I'd let other criteria be the decider, simply because the price difference isn't drastic, and neither is the material in this instance.

But we're giving Jamesh some stuff to chew on anyways, which is what he was after.

 

[RX-79G]

Specific to the ESEEs, an awful lot of people do not care for their short, blocky handles. ESEE uses a nice sheath and micarta scales, but the steel and ergos are lacking for the price, IMO.

Not perfect either, but Becker's are decent in this range. Nicer alloy steel, good handle shape.

 

[Velitrius]

Very valid point, RX. I like the exchange of input on this subject.

If a person were to opt for the "better steel" but find that the ergos just didn't work, then we have one of those other criteria I was thinking of. Wouldn't matter if the steel is lacking.

I have a set of kitchen knives that the Monster-In-Law got for us one year. I don't care if the steel is INFI or Adamantium.. the ergos suck. Only reason they aren't in a dumpster far, far away is because Gawd Forbid the M-I-L shows up for dinner one night and we aren't enjoying the living hell out of her "gift".

You bring up the sheath as well... very valid consideration. I'd put it in my checklist of factors when determining my choice, but again, it falls within the "other criteria" section.

You almost have to ask yourself if the "other factors" outweigh the difference in materials provided on each of these pieces. Jamesh asked:

"Considering the nearly equal cost and warranties, what valid reasons would there be for choosing 1095 over SR101?"

So I'm back to saying "None, if the steel is the only criteria for you." But considering the pieces you listed, maybe it shouldn't be the only criteria.

 

[Fanglekai]

I don't notice a huge difference between SR101 and 1095 in use. They both sharpen easily on silicon carbide stones. Bussekin knives don't come with a sheath. For a decent kydex sheath that's easily another $30. I ended up paying about $140 total for knife, shipping, and sheath for my Scrapyard 511. I paid about $105 for the ESEE-4. They are both nice. The ESEE came with a thinner grind and cuts better out of the box. YMMV.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

Thx guys. At this point, the steel is the only criteria im curious about.

I wouldnt choose 1095 over the others unless there was a reason i hadnt thought of.

Just wondered if there was anything i hadnt considered.

O and i was unaware 1095 was carbide. Thx RX.

Perhaps a better question should be:

Why choose ESEE over Swamp Rat ??

 

[me2]

I wouldn't call either steel high carbide, though they both have some. How much depends on heat treatment. Which is tougher will also depend on heat treatment. It's difficult to predict without knowing any details. In a practical sense, the 1095 in ESEE's Junglas will take full accidental impacts with rocks without chipping.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Why choose ESEE over Swamp Rat ??

Hmm... because you like being called an "idiot" by the owners? Because you want to pay for soft steel (Rc ~56) that the owner's think is too fragile to be, for example, thrown? Because you prefer to buy from owners who will only warranty their soft, thick 1095 blades but not 440C blades? Because you prefer to buy from owners who don't actually make knives, just contract the work from another company (Rowen)? Because you don't care how the knife feels in hand? Because you feel the knives are "good enough" and won't pay more even if quality is better.

I own an ESEE Izula and love it - my absolute favorite fixed blade in that size :thumbup: But you could buy a Buck Paklite Skinner and get a kydex sheath for it for less and have as good or perhaps even a better product with a lifetime warranty and stainless steel.
The ESEE Junglas is an awesome blade to which all others that size are compared due to how well designed it is, one ESEE that comes with an appropriate handle :thumbup: and as mentioned, the sheaths are very good (from Armory Plastics).
The Izula and Junglas are the only 2 that makes sense to me, but I have trouble buying from ESEE given the owners' behavior. I still want an ESEE Gibson if they ever come out... but I wish it would be in a harder steel.

Swamp Rat is Busse. They make the knives they sell, they warranty them, they back them even under outrageous use that the ESEE owners flame users for. Swamp rat knives have some of the best handles out there, and as already discussed the steel is top-notch in strength and durability (Rc. 60). They do tend to be rather thick in the grind because that is their design - strength at the cost of cutting efficiency - BUT you will find satin-blades and FFG with much thinner grinds from their custom shop (or on the exchange here), or you can specifically request a thinner grind with your order as well as varieties of handle materials and blade-coatings. Also, you can grind the edges thinner yourself and they perform just as well. :thumbup: No, they do not come with sheaths, but LOTS of kydex-benders and leather-toolers on the forum have patterns for RMD-sheaths, you can also use a SpecOps short-sheath.

If you don't mind rubber handles and want something less expensive than Swamp Rat, Scrapyard is the 3rd Busse company and also uses SR101. While they are hard to come by, the ScrapMax is a light and thin slicing-machine from the Yard made from Elmax steel, while on the other end is the SYKCO 911 or 1111 choppers comparable to the Junglas. Again, you need to find sheaths, but they aren't hard to come by.

 

[shqxk]

Since every brand mentioned here seem to use decent steel with proper heat treat... I would say overall design, blade geometry and ergonomic are much more important factor to be consider....

If you had 2 exactly same knife one made from 52100 and one from 1095 you used them all day I don't believe you would ever see a difference between them.

 

[knarfeng]

My question is this:
what valid reasons would there be for choosing 1095 over SR101?

1095 would be easier to sharpen than "carbide steel" if you don't have advanced sharpening equipment with you, say in an emergency survival situation.

1095 isn't normally considered a "carbide steel" because the carbides are Iron Carbide, aka cementite. Cementite is significantly softer than Chromium Carbide, or Vanadium Carbide, which are the two carbides most often discussed in alloys such as D2 or 440C. 52100 contains chromium carbide.

Because cementite is so much softer, you can easily sharpen 1095 on a natural stone, or a piece of pottery. An alloy containing Chromium Carbide or Vanadium carbide would require far more effort to sharpen.

 

[RX-79G]

1095 would be easier to sharpen than "carbide steel" if you don't have advanced sharpening equipment with you, say in an emergency survival situation.

1095 isn't normally considered a "carbide steel" because the carbides are Iron Carbide, aka cementite. Cementite is significantly softer than Chromium Carbide, or Vanadium Carbide, which are the two carbides most often discussed in alloys such as D2 or 440C. 52100 contains chromium carbide.

Because cementite is so much softer, you can easily sharpen 1095 on a natural stone, or a piece of pottery. An alloy containing Chromium Carbide or Vanadium carbide would require far more effort to sharpen.

Are you actually saying that 52100 is much more difficult to sharpen than 1095? Do you think that most users would agree with that? This isn't anywhere near the alloy levels of stainless, D2 or even 3V. 52100, 1095, 1084, 80CrV2, O1, 50100B and A2 are all more alike than different when it comes to sharpening compared to something like 440C.


And cementite is a carbide. The only reason to use hypereutectoid steel, like 1095, is to form cementite carbides. The only other possible product of the extra carbon is pearlite, which weakens and softens the steel.

 

[knarfeng]

No, I don't really expect 52100 to be more difficult to sharpen, but I don't consider 52100 to be loaded with a serious amount of "carbides". It only has a couple % of Chromium, so it will mostly be Iron Carbide instead of Chromium Carbide.

I don't really consider 1095 or 52100 to be carbide forming steels (even though, technically, they are). Mostly when folks talk about carbides, they mean Chromium Carbide, Vanadium Carbide, and Tungsten carbide. Those are the ones that seriously change the wear resistance of the steel.