Advice for kids training

mneedham, I am a scout leader too and that link will be very useful, thanks.

I have worked with kids for a lot of my life, and if there is one thing I know, explaining things to 1 or 2 is WAAAAYYYY different then even a few. I don't even know if it's just kids these days, but when I was in scouts we were always very polite and attentive. I blame TV, the free babysitter.
 
I understand what you are saying skammer, but you are assuming that the child is going to panic or be very stressed if they get lost or realize they will have to stay the night outdoors. This will be most likely true for children who feel that they in unfamiliar territory, and don't know what to do. But if you raise your child in the outdoors, and teach them everything from the basics to the advanced, they are unlikely to panic when outdoors, because outdoors will feel familiar to them. If they don't panic, they are less likely to forget what they are taught. They are however more likely to remember what they are taught if they actually practice what they are taught on some kind of regular basis. For children, and some adults, doing is learning. You could walk buy a plant and tell your kid that it is edible, and he will have forgotten in 5 minutes, but if you make a habit of spending time in the woods, and actually eat that plant, or use it as an ingredient, and have your child do the collecting, he is much more likely to remember what that plant is, what it looks like, and that it is edible.

To say that children can't learn advanced skills is simply untrue, children learn at a much faster rate than adults do. But, the basic building blocks must be there first; you wouldn't teach someone algebra before they knew how to multiply, divide, etc. So, yes, teach them the basics first, but if they master those, do not be afraid to teach them the most advanced skills you know. A child's brain is a sponge, and when taught correctly, there ability to learn will amaze you.

Sure teaching your kids how to make a fire is good, but do you let them start the fire every time you go camping? You taught them how to build a shelter, but do you let them pitch the tent or build his shelter when you go camping? If they have set up camp on there own and spent the night outdoors on several occasions, then they are more likely to feel comfortable enough when lost to do the same. If you set up camp every time however, of course they will panic, because they don't know what to do.

Oh, I suppose I'm rambling now, but hopefully you guys can decode my post enough to get the point I'm trying to make.
 
Liam,

That's great that your into scouting! You are absolutely right about kids being different today, I find that they speak to adults in a way that they didn't when I was a youngster. I guess that is why scouting is important, maybe we can set the standard and lead by example...
 
Hey, Pitdog, what type of string do you use for the fire bow? I was teaching scouts to use a fire bow, and the heavy boot lace I used was almost worthless. Got almost no traction on the spindle, and frayed way faster than I would have thought.
 
Every time I hear that "kids these days don't have the respect that I did in my days" etc I laugh. (I say this all the time, having been working with kids as a volunteer for years, currently 11 year old scouts). I see kids do and say things to their elders, and I say "I never would have dared say that back when I was a kid". this may be true, but it brings to mind this quote

"The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer
rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents,
chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table . . . and are tyrants over their teachers." Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato

it just makes me laugh, although it might be true that every generation is less well behaved than the last, at least it has been true for thousands of years.
 
Plato never got mowed down with firearms in his classroom. The slide has been steep this last generation.

Skam
 
Bigfattyt,

Good point. The kids that I interact with aren't bad, just different. I have occasion to be in public school classrooms occasionally and kids of all ages will readily challenge you and question you in a way I wouldn't have when I was young. Sometimes it does seem disrespectful, but maybe culture has just changed and I am conservative.. Lots of good kids out there though.. I have young folks that work for me that impress the heck out of me with their character and work-ethic, but than again, I see kids who seem to feel a sense of entitlement... But, I think your point is correct.
 
Teach the kids anything they may remember. It would surprise alot of you how much they learn. Fire making with a bow, sure. Debris hut, great.

But to just take on a nay sayer attitude and spout negative comments is reducing yourself to the rear end of horse. I've seen kids that by age 7 or 8 can make fire with a mag block, know enough to stay put when lost, build a hut. I've raised three children and they all had good woods skills before they reached a two digit age. And as far as negative comments about the uselessness of practicing in the back yard or under daddys supervision, just where in the blue blazes do you think they will practice it for the first couple of times? Once they've done it a few times and have the items handy in a waist pack, they won't be so panicked out in the woods if they have skills to concentrate on. Skills and the practice of them go a long way.

Some of you need to back off and get a grip.
 
Just looking at how much stuff kids have these days is a good indication, when I was a kid if you had a super nintendo you were lucky, now kids have cell phones, ipods, sony psps, laptops, lots of other gear. Kids these days are spoiled plain and simple.
Attention spans are virtually non existant, I used to watch smurfs and he-man,
now I can't watch 10 seconds of digimon or pokemon without feeling like lying down for a good ol' seizure. (flipping through the channels of course:D)
 
jackknife said:
Teach the kids anything they may remember. It would surprise alot of you how much they learn. Fire making with a bow, sure. Debris hut, great.

But to just take on a nay sayer attitude and spout negative comments is reducing yourself to the rear end of horse. I've seen kids that by age 7 or 8 can make fire with a mag block, know enough to stay put when lost, build a hut. I've raised three children and they all had good woods skills before they reached a two digit age. And as far as negative comments about the uselessness of practicing in the back yard or under daddys supervision, just where in the blue blazes do you think they will practice it for the first couple of times? Once they've done it a few times and have the items handy in a waist pack, they won't be so panicked out in the woods if they have skills to concentrate on. Skills and the practice of them go a long way.

Some of you need to back off and get a grip.
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Hey genius,

I carried 2 bodies of trained scouts out from the bush. They were older and had all the badges and died anyway. I carried a trained military survival instructors body out after we broke the frozen joints to fit them in a bag. Several experienced outdoorsman I evac'd out in rubber so spare me.

I pounded on the chest of an 8 yr old gone 2 days who was still warm when we found him dead in the middle of summer, at the funeral they said he used to camp in shelters and loved to make fires with his brother and father.

A child is a child nothing more nothing less. YOu need to get a grip.

Skam
 
pitdog said:
Fire006.jpg
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pitdog, what is that knife? I am looking for a small sheath knife, with a good guard, for my 9 year old daughter.
 
skammer said:
Hey genius,

I carried 2 bodies of trained scouts out from the bush. They were older and had all the badges and died anyway. I carried a trained military survival instructors body out after we broke the frozen joints to fit them in a bag. Several experienced outdoorsman I evac'd out in rubber so spare me.

I pounded on the chest of an 8 yr old gone 2 days who was still warm when we found him dead in the middle of summer, at the funeral they said he used to camp in shelters and loved to make fires with his brother and father.

A child is a child nothing more nothing less. YOu need to get a grip.

Skam
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:confused::rolleyes:

What is your point? Don't bother teaching kids survival skills because they will die anyway?
I think you misunderstood jacknife.
 
Liam Ryan said:
:confused::rolleyes:

What is your point? Don't bother teaching kids survival skills because they will die anyway?
I think you misunderstood jacknife.
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I teach kids survival hundreds a year. The difference is I have no illusions of their ability because THEY ARE CHILDREN.

Sure some retained knowledge is great and may even give them a bit of an edge but it is a far cry from competency in a dire situation.

Knowing something and having the ability to do it under stress, injury, fatigue or panic is hard enough for adults let alone kids. I fear a parents overconfidence in their kids ability may delay a call for help which is not smart and could prove fatal.

Not a hard concept to understand.

Skam
 
Kids are always going to get lost in the woods, which is the whole reason you train them, am I wrong? Kids are taught garbage in school and they regurgitate it, why not try teaching them something that keeps you from hauling their bodies out of the woods?
As long as you teach them the most important thing "stay calm, stay put"
I think they may be capable then more then you give them credit for.
As for parents not calling for help, has that ever happened?
"Oh, little johnny can build a shelter and make a fire, lets wait til morning to call the police." With parents that dumb the kids better off living in the woods.
 
Liam Ryan said:
Kids are always going to get lost in the woods, which is the whole reason you train them, am I wrong? Kids are taught garbage in school and they regurgitate it, why not try teaching them something that keeps you from hauling their bodies out of the woods?
As long as you teach them the most important thing "stay calm, stay put"
I think they may be capable then more then you give them credit for.
As for parents not calling for help, has that ever happened?
"Oh, little johnny can build a shelter and make a fire, lets wait til morning to call the police." With parents that dumb the kids better off living in the woods.
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Liam,

I have seen it all in SAR. the depths of peoples stupidy astounds me. I have seen parents not call SAR for a lost 3 yr old for hrs because he had a jacket on and would be ok. Dragging bodies of adults who know what they are doing does nothing to convince me children would be any better off.

Children are children, teach them train them but make no mistake they are not little adults and should be watched over. I never said dont teach them what I am saying is a child who can start a fire cannot be trusted to not die of hypothermia no matter how good he is with a magflint block.

Case in point: I dont care to recover another child who wrapped his body around a tree driving an atv and then listen to the brain dead parents say he was highly experienced and had more riding time than adults.

Kids are kids man, until you hold a dead one maybe you will never understand.

Skam
 
I understand kids, but regardless of weather we trust them has nothing to do with the fact they will get lost in the woods no matter what, it happens.
weather or not they will remember what you teach them is up to the kids, weather or not the parents call the police or SAR is up to the parents.

"what I am saying is a child who can start a fire cannot be trusted to not die of hypothermia no matter how good he is with a magflint block."

I agree. Same can be said about anything and everything. Big knives can still break, expensive cars can still break down, the most knowledgable people in the world can be wrong.
I am still having trouble understanding the point you are trying to make, how can teaching them anything that can save their lives be a bad thing? Because they still might die?
 
I am planning an exhibition with different kinds of outdoor equipment. Some basic and some very advanced. My thought is to show what you should bring along if you go into the forest. Here is my plan:
Whistle is most important. You walk away from the group on a field day. You might be just hundred meters away, so as soon as the whistleing starts they find you.
Garbage bag is number two. You might still not be far away but it starts raining.
The plastic band is three. When you have blown the whistle and didnt get a reply in an hour or so.
Light sticks and LED lights come in play now when it gets darker.

Firemaking and knives are only when you are starting to get really stationary and plan to stay over night. This is an age thing as well.

There are some kids that has been lost during field days and was later found dead in the forest after some days. I guess the reason was that they felt it would hurt more to be yelled at by their parents if found than being lost.
Over here we have lots of immigrant kids who hides really well (they survived the war in X by doing so). If the police with dogs come and search for them they almost dig a hole and hide in. Some kids were "fooled" to come out by the help of the ice cream truck.
 
One thing that Ive always been told is to let the children know that when strangers are calling for you dont hide from them. Because children have the mentality that they have done something wrong so they will hide.
The best skill for young children to learn is probably to signal and not to keep running/hiding. A small flashlight and a whistle go a long way.
 
"Plato never got mowed down with firearms in his classroom. The slide has been steep this last generation.
Skam"

I dare say dear Plato was likely bent forward over a table at school. Different generations face different problems. There have always been problem kids, always will be- we just do the best we can with the ones that wil listen.

I keep reading this thread & the way I address teaching my kids is just like teaching them to walk. I teach them the basics and go from there. "Help Me Find You" is the first lesson. Hug a Tree and a basic list like Skammers is the best start for the kids I have worked with. Get comfortable, increase your visibility because I and others ARE LOOKING for YOU. As they progress we move to fire, improved shelter and water.
I have been through training regimines that mimic stress- earplugs, blinders, flashing lights, people pushing you off balance--- damned bizarre how stress will turn you into a stumbling idiot. I use a set of instructions for what their kit is for and the steps they should take laminated to the back of their picture. Memory is not required, they see it as an adult talking to them. There is a short paragraph letting them know that we are looking for them- to follow their instructions and wait for us. The kids I work with are not trekking the Amazon. They are hiking, camping or playing in woods with groups of friends- people are not that far off.

2Door
 
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