Advice Needed

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huntingsgr8

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May 25, 2015
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A few days ago a friend of mine messages me saying he has a sword that he's like me to build him, now because he's pretty general, and still working on the drawings I haven't got a whole lot of details. What I do know is that he's like it to be damascus steel with about 200 layers, functional, mono tempered, double edged.....and oh yeah, he wants the blade to be 48" long! Now I've never made anything that length, so it has me a little bit nervous. My plan was to use a mix of 1084, and 15n20, first I'd make 3 1.5"X5" billets containing each, weld and fold each three times, then forge them all into one billet. From there I'd draw it out and forge as per usual, assuming I lose 50% of my steel from welding and forging I've decided to get 100"X1.5"X1/8 of 1084, and 50"x1.5x.060" 15n20. That should give me around 7 or 8 lbs of steel to start with. Have any of you ever forged something of this size before? I'm really not sure on the best way to keep the blade straight as I hammer in the bevels, any suggestions? In my reading I've found that most blade makers forge from tang to tip, rather than tip to tang, why is this? And yes, I will be doing this all by hand, I don't own a power hammer, the best I could do in that respect is get a young roofer I know with a passion for knives to swing a sledge for a few hours here and there.
 
huntingsgr8 said:
A few days ago a friend of mine messages me saying he has a sword that he's like me to build him, now because he's pretty general, and still working on the drawings I haven't got a whole lot of details. What I do know is that he's like it to be damascus steel with about 200 layers, functional, mono tempered, double edged.....and oh yeah, he wants the blade to be 48" long! Now I've never made anything that length, so it has me a little bit nervous. My plan was to use a mix of 1084, and 15n20, first I'd make 3 1.5"X5" billets containing each, weld and fold each three times, then forge them all into one billet. From there I'd draw it out and forge as per usual, assuming I lose 50% of my steel from welding and forging I've decided to get 100"X1.5"X1/8 of 1084, and 50"x1.5x.060" 15n20. That should give me around 7 or 8 lbs of steel to start with. Have any of you ever forged something of this size before? I'm really not sure on the best way to keep the blade straight as I hammer in the bevels, any suggestions? In my reading I've found that most blade makers forge from tang to tip, rather than tip to tang, why is this? And yes, I will be doing this all by hand, I don't own a power hammer, the best I could do in that respect is get a young roofer I know with a passion for knives to swing a sledge for a few hours here and there.
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That alone would be a good reason to say no.



Some other things to consider:

Your steel math is wrong. That would not make a sufficient size billet. You would need twice that order. You will need to forge out a 3/8"X2"X40" rough billet.

I would suggest you forge the basic profile and do stock removal for the main part. An angle grinder is great for roughing the bevels.

A sword made from a 55-60" billet of damascus would also be very expensive. The billet would be worth about $600 on a Black Friday sale.
HT would also be problematic. I wouldn't take that order for less than $2000-2500 ( depending on the hardware).
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
That alone would be a good reason to say no.



Some other things to consider:

Your steel math is wrong. That would not make a sufficient size billet. You would need twice that order. You will need to forge out a 3/8"X2"X40" rough billet.

I would suggest you forge the basic profile and do stock removal for the main part. An angle grinder is great for roughing the bevels.

A sword made from a 55-60" billet of damascus would also be very expensive. The billet would be worth about $600 on a Black Friday sale.
HT would also be problematic. I wouldn't take that order for less than $2000-2500 ( depending on the hardware).
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That's about the price that I arrived at, I asked for a 50% deposit too, he's a friend, but that's a lot of material. I could substitute the 1084, for 1095 and use some mild steel in between, that would cut the cost by a few bucks, and I really only have to keep the carbon content around .5% to keep an edge.
 
I've been making swords and damascus for a long time, and I do have a power hammer, and I think I'd pass on that one. So much to go wrong in a double edged sword with 48" of edge even in monosteel...
When I started I did all my pattern welding with a 6lb straight peen...that billet will break you.
 
huntingsgr8 said:
That's about the price that I arrived at, I asked for a 50% deposit too, he's a friend, but that's a lot of material. I could substitute the 1084, for 1095 and use some mild steel in between, that would cut the cost by a few bucks, and I really only have to keep the carbon content around .5% to keep an edge.
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Just make sure you can deliver $2k+ worth of sword at the end of the job, and/or be prepared for a full refund. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't attempt it, but this sounds like a massive job even IF you had a full blown shop with presses and hammers. I assume you have a plan (or the ability) for heat treating over 4' of steel?
 
knife to a gunfight said:
Just make sure you can deliver $2k+ worth of sword at the end of the job, and/or be prepared for a full refund. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't attempt it, but this sounds like a massive job even IF you had a full blown shop with presses and hammers. I assume you have a plan (or the ability) for heat treating over 4' of steel?
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From an ethical standpoint I think knife to a gunfight nailed it. Especially since it's a friend I would be really honest and tell them you haven't done anything that size before and may not feel good enough about what you end up with to charge him for it. I believe you need to be okay with having a lot of time tied up in the project and possibly not getting a return on your investment. It's a learning experience either way.

ON EDIT: And I would factor in your experience with such projects into the price. If you can deliver a product of similar quality to what Stacy would, by all means charge the same price. Maybe you can deliver that same level of quality but it will take you many times as long as Stacy and learn something along the way. If you can't deliver the quality a more experienced maker could you shouldn't charge the same price. My main profession is as a builder. We build some magazine cover, award winning amazing homes and commercial projects, but started out with much more modest projects. We are finishing a project right now that another builder started and was in way over their head. My personal suggestion would be to make some swords for yourself, increasing the size as you learn, long before building one for someone else.
 
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I wouldn't take ANY money down on that, IF i took the order (I wouldn't, and I have a PH.) I would certainly invite him over and hand him a sledge though. Not saying you shouldn't do it, but I would look at it more as an adventure with my friend then means of income.

The forge welding would be easy in comparison to HTing that bad boy!
 
Out of curiosity have you ever forged any of this? More specifically damascus, a sword or a double edged blade? I asked because all present big challenges over your standard knife blade and all have sizable learning curves.

Also as mentioned, heat treating and etching a blade that long will present it's own challenges.

Not trying to discourage you or be negative, just pointing out some of the difficulties I run into when telling myself I want to make my first sword. I will, but I don't have the equipment I feel I need yet.

If you do go forward with it I wish you luck and please post photos of your progress.

-Clint
 
drysideshooter said:
From an ethical standpoint I think knife to a gunfight nailed it. Especially since it's a friend I would be really honest and tell them you haven't done anything that size before and may not feel good enough about what you end up with to charge him for it. I believe you need to be okay with having a lot of time tied up in the project and possibly not getting a return on your investment. It's a learning experience either way.

ON EDIT: And I would factor in your experience with such projects into the price. If you can deliver a product of similar quality to what Stacy would, by all means charge the same price. Maybe you can deliver that same level of quality but it will take you many times as long as Stacy and learn something along the way. If you can't deliver the quality a more experienced maker could you shouldn't charge the same price. My main profession is as a builder. We build some magazine cover, award winning amazing homes and commercial projects, but started out with much more modest projects. We are finishing a project right now that another builder started and was in way over their head. My personal suggestion would be to make some swords for yourself, increasing the size as you learn, long before building one for someone else.
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I have told him that I've never done anything that big, and if I screw this up I'll refund him the cost of his material, and he's prepared to take that loss, so I'm assuming he has faith in me. I'm making my price based on an hourly wage of 10$, plus material cost, which included the propane for the welding and the grinding equipment.
 
I know full well how hard it is to forge by hand, so I've though up a way to cut down on my work, though I'd love to know what you think of the idea. My plan is to make 3 or 4 separate billets, do what folding I need to, draw them out to about half, or three quarters of the finished length, and weld them together gradually. That should cut out some of the difficulties I would experience drawing a block of that size out. I have made longer blades, up to about 30 inches, and I know just how many things can go wrong, warping, unwanted curves, corkscrewing, inconsistent thickness.....cracking, but I think I can pull it off.
 
Honestly it sounds to me like you have it well in hand and have been honest with your friend. Going in to it with a clear understanding and a clear conscious I am guessing it will be a fun project. Post pics and best wishes for a great outcome.
 
Then do it. Sometimes people jump in the ocean and find they swim very well. But you could drown, too. It's sounds like a hell of a project. The old time sword makers only had hand tools and some created pieces that every blade maker looks at in awe now.

If I was your friend I'd want you to be honest, though. I'd also look at it as a learning opportunity and be quick to jump over and help you make it. If it doesn't turn out perfect at least I'd know what went into it and could be happy knowing I helped tackle a complicated piece, imperfections and all.

As far as heat treating it, could you send it to an industrial heat treating service that has kilns and tanks big enough? If that's an option then keep the steel mix simple.

Having said that, I'm not a maker. I'm just trying to look at it from my point of view and what makes sense to me.
 
I admire your ambition, but would like to offer a piece of advice I've reluctantly accepted myself. Never take money on a project that you have never done before. I will accept cost of materials if I have an agreement that that may be a loss if the project doesn't turn out. It doesn't have to be a formal contract, I just usually send an e-mail with the understanding that this is an experiment. If things go south, it could save a friendship.

I remember taking a deposit on a dagger before I ever made one. I took a loss on that as I ruined a couple blanks before I had a moderately passable blade to give my friend. Maybe your friend would be interested in a mono steel blade this year, then use that learning curve to make a pattern welded steel blade next year?
 
bodog said:
Then do it. Sometimes people jump in the ocean and find they swim very well. But you could drown, too. It's sounds like a hell of a project. The old time sword makers only had hand tools and some created pieces that every blade maker looks at in awe now.

If I was your friend I'd want you to be honest, though. I'd also look at it as a learning opportunity and be quick to jump over and help you make it. If it doesn't turn out perfect at least I'd know what went into it and could be happy knowing I helped tackle a complicated piece, imperfections and all.

As far as heat treating it, could you send it to an industrial heat treating service that has kilns and tanks big enough? If that's an option then keep the steel mix simple.

Having said that, I'm not a maker. I'm just trying to look at it from my point of view and what makes sense to me.
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It would be nice if he could help, but he moved about 700 miles away a couple of years ago. Back in the day we would hang out on weekends in the garage, and forge knives out of rebar with the wood stove........well I did, a 4 lb wasn't something he handled well. That's basically how I started, re bar, and an old transport rim wood stove
 
Willie71 said:
I admire your ambition, but would like to offer a piece of advice I've reluctantly accepted myself. Never take money on a project that you have never done before. I will accept cost of materials if I have an agreement that that may be a loss if the project doesn't turn out. It doesn't have to be a formal contract, I just usually send an e-mail with the understanding that this is an experiment. If things go south, it could save a friendship.

I remember taking a deposit on a dagger before I ever made one. I took a loss on that as I ruined a couple blanks before I had a moderately passable blade to give my friend. Maybe your friend would be interested in a mono steel blade this year, then use that learning curve to make a pattern welded steel blade next year?
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Thanks for the advice. I think I'll come up with a worst case scenario plan with him, just in case. Also, I would happily do it out of mono steel, but he just has some sort of allure to Damascus that I can't shake off of him.
 
I totally agree with Willie. Maybe try a mono-steel sword with your buddy helping. Let him pay for everything including the Propane. Just sawing to the profile and grind the bevels will be a big task.
 
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