Advice on Project Khukri

[Issun]

no if it only went most of the way through the handle, it wouldn't be a full tang... it has to traverse FULLY through the handle in-order to be a full tang, a rat-tail-like tang could be "rat tail like" and not traverse through the handle, the adjectives are describing completely different things

also Andrew that axe handle looks awesome and incredibly comfy

 

[OldeWolf]

no if it only went most of the way through the handle, it wouldn't be a full tang... it has to traverse FULLY through the handle in-order to be a full tang, a rat-tail-like tang could be "rat tail like" and not traverse through the handle, the adjectives are describing completely different things

also Andrew that axe handle looks awesome and incredibly comfy

Then that's pretty much most of HI products as proven by the pictures above showing that it does not go all the way through the handle but stops somewhere inside the handle. A rat-tail tang is formed as a pointy metal shape that the handle is wrapped around on which is pretty much a taboo in the outdoor survival community for plenty of obvious reasons (and I've personally broken a knife that had a rat-tail tang inside the handle, thus being exposed to such a concept for the first time about it years ago in my youth).

Point here is, I'm not going to take the same risk again. I'm a heavy duty outdoors man and I expect the tools I have to uphold it's own strength from it's designs and materials. I will be chiruwa'ing my first HI knife and then take it to the outdoors for some good times. Everyone wins.

 

[lman30]

Here is one I did using an axe handle. Worked quite well.

Quoting the pic just to see it again...

That handle looks GREAT, the light wood contrasting with the stacked leather really just pops, and it's nice shape to compliment the blade. Nicely done.

 

[gomipile]

I've always understood "full tang" and "full exposed tang" to be two different things. For example, I consider the Cold Steel Kobun to be a full tang, since it is just a handle-shaped bar of steel with a thin coating of Kraton covering it completely. Likewise, I always considered the Kabar to be full tang, Mora to be rat tail, Becker BK2 to be full exposed tang, etc.

 

[Steve Tall]

Then that's pretty much most of HI products as proven by the pictures above showing that it does not go all the way through the handle but stops somewhere inside the handle...

The specific khukuri in the pictures above is a "Hanuman" model which is one of the uncommon khuks from HI without the tang going all the way to the buttplate. Almost all of HI's non-chiruwa khukuris do have a strong full-length tang that is peened over the buttplate.

Here's an X-ray that jdk1 had made, showing the Hanuman model compared with the typical HI full-length tang construction. The Hanuman is on the right:

from http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/871579-HI-Khuk-Handle-X-Ray

That said, lots of people prefer the "chiruwa" construction, which is probably why it's an option. No arguments from me about preferences.

 

[OldeWolf]

Wow Steve, thank you for that fun way of looking at the tangs (even tho it's not your xray picture).

I can now see how such tangs can function and be designed/constructed as based on those pictures.

Wouldn't those tampered tangs still break at the narrow sections of the entire build if used heavily? Isn't that the main reason why we "evolved" away from any rat-tail styled tangs, to prevent such potential situation from happening?

 

[Issun]

I think its more of a response to the popularity of batonning... normally most of the energy from any strike is absorbed by the blade itself before reaching the tang, also a well fitted handle greatly adds to the strength of the design. also with how the tang is designed the energy that reaches it is pretty much going in one direction, parrallel to the blade and runs down the length of the tang, the tang would have to run up against something to break (like a loosely afixed handle) but if you were to baton close to the handle then youre going to want the extra metal from a chiruwa style tang (baton over the sweet spot and you might be more limited in what you can baton but you are still working with the strengths of the blade... )

indeed choose the chiruwa option and everyone wins I don't baton with my khuks and prefer the balance and lighter weight of the traditional handles

 

[Steve Tall]

...Wouldn't those tampered tangs still break at the narrow sections of the entire build if used heavily? Isn't that the main reason why we "evolved" away from any rat-tail styled tangs, to prevent such potential situation from happening?

I'm guessing that hidden tangs and thin rat-tail tangs were once used as a way to conserve the amount of steel used, back when steel was more precious. These full-length tangs from HI, however, are THICK, which can't be seen from the Xray. Unless there is a steel defect, a person should not be able to break them without the aid of machinery.

The tangs are not heat-treated, so they are tough. There is an infamous video that can be found on YouTube showing the destruction testing of a non-chiruwa Ang Khola made by HI. The tang was pretty much unbreakable, even with blade clamped in vise and tang beaten on with a hammer.

 

[Steely_Gunz]

"Rat tail" tangs have been around forever and will hold up just fine. Rat tails are thought of as weaker for two reasons: The advent of uniformly overly hardened steel used in and marketed as heavy duty field knives, and the spot welded tangs found on garbage wall-hangers. Obviously, stock removed blades with hard shoulders will not hold up to battoning. Obviously, cheap spot welded Pakistani steel will not hold up to much of anything

HI Khuks (unless they are a decorative model like the one shown or specifically mentioned in the description of the knife for sale) are full/through peened-tang blades. The tang is nearly as thick as the blade itself and has been tempered in such a way that they shock resistant and not prone to failure under heavy use. Honestly, the ONLY advantage I can see to using a chiruwa (full/slab) tang khuk instead of a traditional handled one is that the chiruwa would be easier rehandle in an emergency situation. Although, I would postulate that breaking the slabs off in the first place would be more likely than destroying a peened handle enough for repair to be necessary.

In short, don't by a decorative model and expect it to hold up to the abuse of heavy duty use. You can get a chiruwa if it gives you peace of mind, but of the scores of HI khuks to pass through my hands, I have never had one break under heavy use. You have to try and break them to do so.

 

[OldeWolf]

Mmm, I'll buy both the Chiruwa-style blade (first) and a traditional HI Khukuri (second when I get more funds). I am really interested in Foxy Folly or similar. I'm willing to give HI a chance away from traditional "Western views" and perhaps will post on here a review. I'll just be sure to keep my past experience with knives I've broken away from this.

 

[drbarnes]

Steely are you saying that this AK isnt meant to be used!? Its just a wallhanger?

 

[Steely_Gunz]

Steely are you saying that this AK isnt meant to be used!? Its just a wallhanger?

Oh I didn't mean that all I really should qualify that. You shouldn't buy a partial tang khuk and expect it to hold up AS LONG as a peened tang. It's simply not as strong as of a design obviously. However, keep in mind that probably the majority of khuks sold to Nepali villagers are partial tangs, most probably aren't even pinned like yours was. They use these things day in and day out. Eventually the blade begins to work loose, so they take it back to the kami to firm it up a bit.

In short, a pinned HI khuk might only take 3 or 4 years of chopping before it loosens up instead of a lifetime+ with a pinned tang. The blade and the tang on yours is pure HI tough. With a quality handle and pin job, it should last a good long time. It's simple a matter of physics when it comes to blade weight and handle attachment before things work loose.

In short, I would trust my life to a pinned HI khuk to get me out of a pinch without fail. However, with Murphy and his damned laws visiting me on a daily basis, a pinned khuk would not be the first khuk I would pick to take on an extended outdoor adventure. But the blade of yours is heat treated and as tough as any other HI knife. :thumbup:

 

[drbarnes]

Here is one I did using an axe handle. Worked quite well.

WOW Andrew, you did a great job on that, I especially love the stacked leather!! Is it a full tang that is pinned at the bottom or a "rat tail" tang? Do you have a before picture by chance?

The specific khukuri in the pictures above is a "Hanuman" model which is one of the uncommon khuks from HI without the tang going all the way to the buttplate. Almost all of HI's non-chiruwa khukuris do have a strong full-length tang that is peened over the buttplate.

Here's an X-ray that jdk1 had made, showing the Hanuman model compared with the typical HI full-length tang construction. The Hanuman is on the right:

from http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/871579-HI-Khuk-Handle-X-Ray

That said, lots of people prefer the "chiruwa" construction, which is probably why it's an option. No arguments from me about preferences.

That picture is really cool! My Bonecutter and smaller WWII have tangs that show all the way through the handle, but only the Bonecutter has a buttplate. I can only imagine how strong that handle is!

Oh I didn't mean that all I really should qualify that. You shouldn't buy a partial tang khuk and expect it to hold up AS LONG as a peened tang. It's simply not as strong as of a design obviously. However, keep in mind that probably the majority of khuks sold to Nepali villagers are partial tangs, most probably aren't even pinned like yours was. They use these things day in and day out. Eventually the blade begins to work loose, so they take it back to the kami to firm it up a bit.

In short, a pinned HI khuk might only take 3 or 4 years of chopping before it loosens up instead of a lifetime+ with a pinned tang. The blade and the tang on yours is pure HI tough. With a quality handle and pin job, it should last a good long time. It's simple a matter of physics when it comes to blade weight and handle attachment before things work loose.

In short, I would trust my life to a pinned HI khuk to get me out of a pinch without fail. However, with Murphy and his damned laws visiting me on a daily basis, a pinned khuk would not be the first khuk I would pick to take on an extended outdoor adventure. But the blade of yours is heat treated and as tough as any other HI knife. :thumbup:

OK, I read that and got a little worried that I was spending this time redoing a handle for something that was a wallhanger

My plan now is to use some aluminum jb welded on [hey im just a redneck from indiana] to extend the tang, and then basically wrap that with horse stall mat. I will update pics as I get the work done. I should have the aluminum by tomorrow

 

[OldeWolf]

*Loves how this became a visual educational thread*

 

[stickfred]

Wouldn't those tampered tangs still break at the narrow sections of the entire build if used heavily? Isn't that the main reason why we "evolved" away from any rat-tail styled tangs, to prevent such potential situation from happening?

These tangs hold up quite well in use. The only time there is any problem with a tang is when it accidently gets tempered with water (usually happens around Dashain celebration time). Then they have been known to snap off the blade in use. Otherwise they hold up great. As they used to say: Takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'.

 

[drbarnes]

*Loves how this became a visual educational thread*

Me too!

 

[Andrew Colglazier]

WOW Andrew, you did a great job on that, I especially love the stacked leather!! Is it a full tang that is pinned at the bottom or a "rat tail" tang? Do you have a before picture by chance?

Unfortunately I didn't take any "WIP" pics. It was a "thru" tang which I ran all the way through the handle, glued in place and peened down on a steel plate.


Andy

 

[kronckew]

so-called rat-tailed tangs gathered a bad rep when the indians (and other unscrupulous backyard makers) would make a blade without a tang at all, then badly weld a chunk of thin threaded rod to the blade grind the weld & hide it in a cheap handle & screw a cheap nut on in an aluminum or zinc-alloy pommel. most stainless plastic jewelled decorator swords were like this & would break on any use, not just light use.

HI kangaroo tailed tangs are thick enough to withstand any normal abuse. they probably have as much if not more metal cross section to avoid breaking than a chiruwa. if you look at the initial pics of the exposed partial tang, the metal was not drilled, reducing the x-section, but a hole was forged by displacing the metal to the sides, without reducing the x-section. with a new hardwood grip and a pin, that would last as long as a chiruwa.

most chiruwa grips will have the width, but the thickness is reduced and tapered towards the pommel to maintain balance, and the x-section may even be less than the kangaroo-tail with peened end, or even a partial tang especially at the drilled holes...

extending the tang with jbweld & aluminum will likely weaken it rather than improving it.

 

[OldeWolf]

so-called rat-tailed tangs gathered a bad rep when the indians (and other unscrupulous backyard makers) would make a blade without a tang at all, then badly weld a chunk of thin threaded rod to the blade grind the weld & hide it in a cheap handle & screw a cheap nut on in an aluminum or zinc-alloy pommel. most stainless plastic jewelled decorator swords were like this & would break on any use, not just light use.

HI kangaroo tailed tangs are thick enough to withstand any normal abuse. they probably have as much if not more metal cross section to avoid breaking than a chiruwa. if you look at the initial pics of the exposed partial tang, the metal was not drilled, reducing the x-section, but a hole was forged by displacing the metal to the sides, without reducing the x-section. with a new hardwood grip and a pin, that would last as long as a chiruwa.

most chiruwa grips will have the width, but the thickness is reduced and tapered towards the pommel to maintain balance, and the x-section may even be less than the kangaroo-tail with peened end, or even a partial tang especially at the drilled holes...

extending the tang with jbweld & aluminum will likely weaken it rather than improving it.

That's the one thing I noticed about that forged hole because I've done my share of creating those type. When I get my Tirtha Bowie, I will take a direct look at the chiruwa section of the knife and see if such observation is true that they reduced the thickness and such.

*Edit* I took a closer look at Dr. Barnes' tang and saw that the amount of metal in the tang is less than the amount used to fill up the Chiruwa tang. So I do not believe that the Chiruwa is equal or less in metal material than a "kangaroo tailed tang". I think they actually had to increase the amount of metal just to fill in the handle, even if it tampers towards the end slightly.

Here I was demonstrating how to make a hole in the middle of an iron bar.

 

[leebrewer]

So, does this mean the rat tail on the Busse Battle Pappy is gonna break? I couldnt see the steel through the handle on a Cold Steel Khukri Machete either, but had a big surprise when I finally got it off. I wonder how the HI khukri will be broken at the base of the kangaroo tail?
Man, I cant wait till Doc barnes gets his khuk back into action. How rigid is horse stall mat? I think I've only seen it used as slabs.