Advice sought from a LEO..

Ren the devils trailboss

Ren the devils trailboss

Joined
Feb 27, 2001
Messages
12,169
THis happened to my friends kid ( 17yrs old) last night. During summer break from school he and his buddys have been playing survivor etc with "air soft " Guns which are a toy gun that shoots a sponge BB about the diameter of a pea. The guns are all very clearly red tipped and can be purchased at any and all toys stores, walmarts, etc.
Last night Josh ( the kid ) was playing soccer with a few of his buddies at the local junior high school soccer field which is about two blocks from Josh's home. After playing around he and his buddy are loading thier soccer gear in thier respective cars and josh pulls out his air soft gun and shoots a few sponge BBs and his friend and drops the gun back into his trunk and closes it ..says goodbye and heads home..(all of 30 seconds Im guessing)
Half an hour later Five (count em ) five police cars park in front of my friends house. They remove Josh from the house and place him in the back of the cruiser ( no cuffs ) during this time the officer in charge of the investigation asks Josh his age. Josh replies that he is 17 to which the cop replies
"ohhhh 17 so your not going to Juvy your going to go to the big house..adult prison" and, "If I saw you with that gun in your pants..I would have shot you dead "The officer then proceeds to inform my friend and his wife that they are responsible for knowing the law and that this is a weapon and a felony weapons charge will be filed with the prosecuter the following morning. after much more questioning it is concluded that although Josh did a really stupid thing it was not a real weapon, and no arrest is made and Josh is left very upset with his very upset parents.
My friend being very upset that evening calls the Lt. of the evening shift and explains the situation and says that he would like to speak with the office the following morning when things were calmer..so he visits with the officer the next day. Assuming that things would be calmer and more sane while just sitting down with the police officer she recieves a call from the LT of the evening shift. Jon listens to the conversation as it is a loud argument between this cop who is insistant that they press charges for a weapons violation and a obviouly much more experienced ( and saner ) Lt. who says she does not have a case.
After she hangs up..my friend then says to the officer that he agrees with everything that she has said ..that it was stupid, careless, etc. but that josh is aside from being a dumb teenager a good kid, hard student, good athlete, never in trouble, civic minded and that this incident could have happened at least 20 times that day alone in thier neighborhood where every teenage kid in the block has passed his summer away by carrying these toy guns and playing assassin or survivor..The cop conceeds that she will not press charges unless her direct supervisor instructs her to do so..

My question is this..Does this cop have a felony firearms case against this kid who was playing with a toy gun with a red tip..Is this toy considered a "weapon" in the eyes of the LEO and the Law? even though it is available at every toy store and is red tipped.
second, does the school have a case with a zero weapons tolerance policy. even thought it was not a school sponsered event.

Third..was the officer in charge..way over the top and way over board in her conduct...

you opinions could help my friend..thanks
 
Well, I can only offer my common sense opinion (i.e. not a legal one) that the "arresting" officer was WAY OUT OF LINE! I think this one would have civil suit all over it if they pressed federal charges. Of course, if something makes sense to the average Joe, the opposite will happen.
 
Cops don't press charges, prosecuters do. I wouldn't worry, unless the local prosecuter likes to be made a fool of.
 
Well, I am not a LEO but depending on the local laws it might be possible to bring some type of charges. Just as an example airsoft guns are considered illegal weapons in NYC. Technically if you are cought with one you can be brought up on felony weapons possesion, but I doubt it ever happened. Now you are able to leave the 5 boroughs, depending on where exactly you are it could mean crossing the street, and buy them at any major store with a sporting goods or toy department. So it is really up to the buyer to make sure that the airsoft gun is legal where it is being used, and where you live.

All that said, I think it was a little excessive. Especially after it was found out that it was just a toy, and two friends playing around. In my mind that should have meant an end to the whole thing.
 
As ErikD said, it can depend on your local and state laws. You don't say where you live. If there is no state or local laws covering these "toys", it seems to be a bad case of judgement on the officers part.
 
The kids shouldn't have been playing with anything resembling a firearm, red-tip or not, in a public area. In America, all airsoft should take place on private property.

That's why I leave my airsoft guns at home in Hong Kong, where even without red tips it's assumed that they're toys. It's just too risky to be playing around like that in America. Not that that's a bad thing; it's just a cultural difference.

What are sponge BB's? I've never seen them before. The BB's usually used in airsoft guns are 6mm hard plastic, with much less penetrating power than 4.5mm steel BB's used in American BB guns. Maybe that's what you're referring to? There are also liquid filled BB's, like mini-paintballs, that are softer than the usual kind. They're too crappily-made to fly well though.
 
A lot of schools would at least suspend a student for having such a "toy" on school property. Even though it's not a school-sponsered event, I'd guess that some of the zero-tolerance stuff is still there as you're on school property. The problem is that you have to draw the line somewhere. Conventional firearms are generally unacceptable anymore in a school area, but what about pellet guns? BB guns? Paintball? Airsoft? How about squirt guns?? That's where the technical problem comes in.

I can understand how the officer(s) might be a little bit edgey, though. I've seen and handled some of these newer airsoft guns at shows, and they've come a long way from the $6.95 specials in "Guns & Ammo". Some of them, with the exception of the red tip, look and feel about as close to a conventional firearm as you can get. I'd bet that a TON of robberies and other crimes are committed with these airsoft guns that have been made to look even more realistic by some kind of alteration of the red tip. Given the right situation, I could see somebody being shot over an airsoft situation. What would you think if you saw a couple of teenage males out pointing what appear to be semi-automatic weapons at each other??

I'm not saying that these guys shouldn't have the airsoft guns, or that they shouldn't be playing with them. I'm saying that they probably should have used some common sense and been playing someplace other than a school soccer field. Chances are the other kid didn't report it, a neighbor probably saw it and called the police with the plate number. Voila, the cops showed up. Granted, it's probably not in the police SOP to shoot somebody dead for having what might be a firearm in their pants. .looks like everybody's got a little blame for the situation. .
 
Ren, man,
if he were'nt your kid, you would be the first guy to be calling what he did a Phucktard thing... you of all people know that reality and "rights" are two very different things...

The cop doesn't have a case... there was no real firearm, and there was no intent to commit a crime. However, had the cop shot your son during his "survivor game", the cop would have gotten away with it almost scott free.

In the interest of preserving your DNA, I think that you need to have a good talk with your son and explain to him the difference between rights and reality... I know I'm not being very articulate today, but it's like walking around the bad neighborhoods with a hundred dollar bill sticking out of your shirt pocket... the law says you can do it, but that's not gonna stop the mugger. Learning to think out of the box is very hard... many adults can't do it.

Edited to add...
Sorry, I missed the part about asking LEO's for advice... I'm not an LEO, but consider my two cents anyway.
 
MM, you also missed the part where he said it wasn't his kid: "THis happened to my friends kid ( 17yrs old) last night"

I think the problem exists on three levels: the kids have to learn not to scare the neighbors, the neighbors have to learn not to overreact to the kids -- and the police have no business jumping up and down and screaming.

I've seen enough police in action, and the best of them are experts in calming a situation, not exacerbating it.

Half an hour later Five (count em ) five police cars park in front of my friends house. They remove Josh from the house and place him in the back of the cruiser ( no cuffs ) during this time the officer in charge of the investigation asks Josh his age. Josh replies that he is 17 to which the cop replies
"ohhhh 17 so your not going to Juvy your going to go to the big house..adult prison" and, "If I saw you with that gun in your pants..I would have shot you dead "The officer then proceeds to inform my friend and his wife that they are responsible for knowing the law and that this is a weapon and a felony weapons charge will be filed with the prosecuter the following morning. after much more questioning it is concluded that although Josh did a really stupid thing it was not a real weapon, and no arrest is made and Josh is left very upset with his very upset parents.
Click to expand...

Huh? This sounds a lot like "Ready, fire! Aim ..." First they deliberately scare the kid and his parents, make up charges they have no authority to file, then they figure out what happened, see it all went nowhere, and slink off.

They need better supervision. No matter what the problem is, that's no way to address the public.
 
By the way, Ren, congratulations to your friends and their kid, for staying cool through the whole thing.
 
I can see were there could be a problem if Josh removed the orange tip to make the gun look real,but if it is still intact I would tell him not to worry.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
MM, you also missed the part where he said it wasn't his kid: "THis happened to my friends kid ( 17yrs old) last night"
Click to expand...
Yeah, I was working on three hours of sleep and 12 hours on when I read the piece...

BTW, when did you become moderator... they'll let anyone moderate these days... first Kalooch, then you... :D
 
MelancholyMutt said:
BTW, when did you become moderator... they'll let anyone moderate these days... first Kalooch, then you... :D
Click to expand...
Keep it up smartass and we'll make sure that you're next. ;) :D
 
I've always been a moderator. What, you just noticed?

Yeah, I was working on three hours of sleep and 12 hours on when I read the piece...
Click to expand...
Same as the rest of us around here ... :p
 
Sounds like heavy-handed police work by a young and inexperienced Officer. The LT. sounds far more reasonable.

Replica firearms when used during the commission of a crime can be charged as a Felony in many States.

In this case, what the kid did was dumb but NOT criminal. I would NO longer talk to or cooperate with the Police on this matter. They can not charge the kid, the Prosecutor cannot Prosecute the kid and there is nothing Legal the Police can do in this specific matter so tell them to talk to your Lawyer if they bother you again. [They won't, it's over]

The kid is a dummy, crack him in the head with a 2X4.............
 
First, I've often found that a very strong and sincere apology in situations like this can go a long, long way in dispelling any misunderstandings that may have initially occurred. Communication between parents and understanding the other side's views and feelings will also help matters--once the intial shock and emotional reactions are over in an incident.

Second, as for the juveniles and guns issue, this is a very big thing right now for parents. Add in school property and emotions can get pretty heated. School shootings, kids bringing guns to class to show their friends........although rare, these things do happen and parents do worry about such things in today's society.

And take for granted that there are people out there who know absolutely nothing about guns except maybe their general shape and the fact that they can kill. Many of these airsoft toys mimic real firearms to an extremely close degree and I can't see how a colored tip on this type of gun is an automatic guarantee of safety--especially if the tip is tucked in a waistband or obscured by a bag or holster. And how about in dim light scenarios? Do these guns look real then?

I recovered a .22 cal rifle from two sixteen-year-olds who were driving around breaking into cars three months ago. This was their father's rifle and it had been decorated by being completely painted in red paint and covered with sterling silver inlays. It looked like a toy from a distance for sure. Meant to be a wall-hanger (albeit gaudy), it was still a fully functional firearm. There was no way to tell at the time, but it was also unloaded. How should an Officer react in a situation like this? Why did those kids even have that gun in the first place considering what they were doing?

And is one of the common Officer nightmare scenarios the one where he/she has to take the life of a juvenile who has a toy that looks like a real gun? Wouldn't it be for anyone? How is someone supposed to feel when even the possibilty of this scene exists? I won't even get into the issue of what is considered a "fair" gunfight when it comes to an Officer facing a suspect with a gun in a deadly force scenario.

As for charges, even if the "other" young man realized later that the gun was a fake, how did he feel the moment he saw the weapon for the first time? Why was that gun at a soccor game and what led up to the pointing of the gun? Was he in fear for his life? If so, then yes, this very well could be a big deal. The other big issue is how strong is the actual complaint from the victim's parents? This will decide how far this thing goes in the courts. An individual Officer may feel very strongly about the incident, but without parents really pushing the complaint, I doubt it will go far. Most Prosecutors have a full plate as is--dealing with those who feel very strongly about what happened to them in public.

And my caveat for the above comments? You can always write volumes about what people don't tell you about an incident.
 
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