AFCK as a survival folder?

Skammer,

I agree I'd rather have a good 7" or larger blade for heavy tasks.

However, I stand by my statement. A razor blade would work if you know how to use it to improvise to meet your needs. The best survival training is to go out there with NO knife and learn how to improvise to meet your needs. Make a knife if there are materials around to do so.

The principles of survival, of heat loss and gain, hydration, nutrition, calories in/calories out, etc. are universal physical laws. It's not about the environment -- it's about the body maintaining function and staying alive, as I believe you well know if you teach survival skills. You only need to do the minimum necessary to adapt to the environment, make the principles work in your favor, and stay alive. To do more is to waste energy and cause the environment to begin working against you, or vice versa. Yes, a 7" or larger blade will work better for you, for certain tasks, in terms of the survival principles, simply because the tool eases the task at hand, and it saves your body's energy.

I'm not sure what skills you refer to that can't be done with a folder. Are they really necessary survival skills (not trying to be sarcastic, it's a genuine question)? The bottom line is, if you have an AFCK, and nothing else, it'll work for you to meet your needs provided you know how to use it for what it is, and, you know what's really necessary for survival and what is not. So, you're making my point: That means you do NOT want to do to it what you do with a 7" blade! It simply functions differently.

Are there some extreme situations that might preclude effective use of a small folder or knife? Sure. We all know the only absolute in wilderness survival is the dynamic, chaotic randomness of nature! I think serious injury can make it hard to physically adapt, and in that case, it doesn't matter what blade you have if you can't use it.

Best,

~Brian.
 
Shadow- I contacted BM and they will correct the problem. The bottom line for me though is that I feel the rounded base and the axis lock are a combination waiting to fail. I've switched back to my Al Mar S2K until I feel something better comes along. All in all though for wilderness work I think a fixed blade is the way to go and I don't go in the woods w/ out one
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That's good to hear, Lobo. I'm relatively new to BM, so I can't say how good/bad their customer service is. As far as the AXIS goes, I haven't been in a situation where it has failed me. The AFCK is only my second AXIS folder, with the first being a 530, and neither has shown any type of blade play or other signs of possible lock problems. IMHO, the AXIS is one of the strongest locks out there.

The Al Mar SERE is an awesome tank of a folder..... The only liner type lock that I've seen that can compare with that of the SERE would be a framelock. :eek:
 
OT, but I had some concerns about getting out of a highrise office when I worked in downtown Cleveland, so I kept a prybar in my desk. No PC problems with that. If needed, I could go through interior walls with the prybar and defeat locks in exterior doors.

Also OT, if there are PC problems, it will be with a knife that is displayed. That suggests that other options may be kept out of sight.


Many wilderness survival tasks will simply not be present in an urban environment. To touch only only one example, the most run-down building likely beats the best brush shelter for keeping out rain, and upolstered furniture/carpeting can make an insulated nest in a building.
 
Brian,

I guess we are into survival philosphy differences here.

I believe in large fixed blades for survival because you can do much more wood prep for the all important fire an shelter, 2 of the most critical survival issues. It takes less energy, less time and in many cases cannot be done with a simple folder.
It also alows you to bridge the gap between lugging an axe around.

I would simply snap ANY! folder in seconds doing the things I do.

Can you get away with only a folder in a nasty bush survival situation? Maybe, maybe not.

DO I carry a 7 inch blade EDC? Of course not I carry a folder, but then we are talking wilderness survival here.

Do I carry a 7 incher when heading into the outback where a real situation is more likely? Sure as hell do.

Can I chop and limb a 15 foot high 3 inch diameter tree in 5 mins with a 7 incher for fire making and shelter building? Sure as hell can. Can I do this with a folder? Maybe but not before expending 10 times the energy doing it.

CAn I spit and pry 6 inch logs in seconds to get at the dry centers with a 7 incher? Yes. CAn I do the same with a folder? Hell no.

Does my $40 SAK with saw do everything a $400 folder can do in the woods? Yes and probably a lot more.

The moral of the story is: If you believe the above is not needed for survival then carry a folder only. If you do then you better have a decent fixed blade that can stand the punishment. I happen to believe it is important to do the above so I carry a larger blade and teach others to do likewise.

There is nothing like trying and experiencing to formulate decisions due to outcomes. I have tried and experienced and carry a large blade because of it.

Some hard use large blades at work. In this thread.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333377

Skam,
 
For me it's a matter of semantics. I consider a survival knife to be a knife you have readily at hand -- an EDC knife, usually a folder can qualify. The Fehrman FJ I carry in the woods is a Wilderness knife and yes, I can do a lot more work using it because it's a heavier, more robust tool than any folder.

However, when I wander away from camp on a hike I may not take that big blade with me. I'll take a smaller fixed blade, maybe a Dozier K-1 or a Fehrman Peace Maker, and my EDC folder. Whichever knives I'm carrying when whatever happens happens, will be my survival knives because they're what I will have on me. I will most likely not be carrying that big heavy blade unless I intend to use it.

I agree that a large SAK with a locking blade and saw makes a very good survival knife.
 
Ok, Skam,

We largely agree on more than you think. I much prefer a large blade and/or a SAK over a one-blade folder. But because we are dealing with information that is too important, I need to be direct here, and please do not take it personally, because I like you, your input, and the way you handle yourself on the forums. It's self-imposed limitations like this that bother me:

Can you get away with only a folder in a nasty bush survival situation? Maybe, maybe not.
Click to expand...

Again, forgive me for being blunt, but the only information this tells me is that YOU don't know how to survive with a 4" folder. All it tells me is that you have never done it yourself -- nothing more. Many others can and have done, or tested it, in multiple environments. I am one of them.

I also read that thread you pointed out about hard-use of blades, and can tell you that, were you in a dire survival situation, you very possibly would have expired from expending way too much energy do more than necessary to stay alive. It's cool what you did and how you did it and all, but in a real survival situation, exhaustion and dehydration, combined with caloric depletion from overexpending energy, tend to make it hard to keep up the pace for long. Now, if you have a large blade, which I agree is preferred, and know how to make it work to CONSERVE energy, then you have a more ideal blade for many woodland situations. But true survival situation rarely involve anything ideal, so if you are going to teach survival, make sure you don't get your students killed.

This isn't about different survival philosophies, Skam, because in the end, the basic physical laws of survival, if violated, will kill you, no matter what your "philosophy" may be. It's nice if you know a bunch of techniques, but those techniques are only effective if you understand how to make them work in terms of the basic premises of your body's heat loss/gain, hydration, caloric input and output. If you understand the principles first, then you will understand how to adapt to any situation. Techniques only serve to meet your needs -- which is what the principles describe.

Now again to be blunt, whenever somebody tells me they teach survival, but then rely on a certain size blade as a crutch, then all they are doing is passing along their self-limits to others, and that is dangerous. What you are saying to your students is "You're gonna die if you go out into the woods without a 7" blade or a SAK with a saw." Nope. Test this out yourself, and you'd be surprised how creative you can get, and well you can do, with just a AFCK folder. Then, you'll develop the confidence to believe its possible, and then you can pass that on. As women have said, "It's not the size of the ship, it's the motion of the ocean." But you obviously are not teaching the global principles of survival -- and, my friend -- that is reckless.

You may teach some techniques, but you are not teaching survival. There's a big difference.

Yes, I have tested myself on this numerous times in several environments. So, my answer to your above quote is a resounding "Yes." Ask Ron Hood, Greg Davenport, and others who have tested it to the Nth degree. Skam, I am speaking from direct experience: it CAN be done. Learn how. We have all gone out in various environments with NO knife to test it out, and it works. IF you understand the principles of survival.

Now, I will always take a large blade with me, because I agree 100% with you that certain tasks are just plain easier. But in a real survival situation, many tasks beomce unnecessary comsumption of the body's own resources that can quickly drain you enough to kill you.

Again, survival isn't about the tool except for one: your brain.

Please take this in the earnest spirit intended: I am not writing the disagreeable parts gleefully at all. I am concerned.

Best,

~Brian.
 
It sounds like you guys are going aren't really that far apart in your perspectives you just have a slightly differing philosophy. I think we all are going to make do with what we have, weather that be a 10in fixed blade, a 4 in folder, or an improvised edge from a plane fuselage or aluminum can...that is the nature of survival. The point I was trying to make and I think Skammer is on the right track.....I want to stack the odds in my favor as much as possible and for me that means having the best tool available...IMHO that is a fixed blade. If I'm stuck short w/ only my folder or something I've had to fashion or salvage...I'll get it done w/ that too!
 
Shadow- BM is a good company and their Customer service isn't bad as long as you didn't do anything over the top w/ your knife...I'm not sure about stuff like batoning. I've EDC'ed a bunch of there liner locks...before AXIS was the thing to have, and some of them are still going strong 8 or 9 years later.

I like my Al Mar S2K, it's just an all around functional knife....As solid as the liners are though they have been known to slip as well. I've come to the conclusion that anything that has a joint in the middle will eventually fail in the right circumstances.
 
Lobo,

I agree 100% to have the best tool for the job -- a 7"-10" is my favorite, too. I just want to make sure that nobody thinks you can't survive in any situation without it. You can, that's all. I agree we are right there as far as preference goes.

If I'm wrong, please correct me, but the point I'm contending sounded like this to me: "a person won't be able to survive in an intense bush survival situation if he or she has only a single blade folder." I just know that that's incorrect. If I misinterpreted Skammer's thinking, then I apologize and retract everything I wrote!

Skammer, I hope you don't take offense at my post. It was not meant to be antagonistic at all.

~B.
 
I have to say I agree with Brain on this subject. If I new I was going into the wilderness for several days, I would want to bring a 7" or larger blade, I however know that I could easily get by with a 4" mora, swiss army knife, or a piece obsidian. Our ancient ancestors lived from the land around them. They built shelters from natural materials, made cord from plant fibers, started fires by rubbing sticks together, and found their food among wild plants. These skills were our ancestor's ways of life. Having this deep understanding of nature and learning to perfect these skills can enrich ones life and outdoor pursuits.

Ron
 
Is it not true that the best tool for gathering firewood in an urban environment is a crow bar (or "wrecking bar") because most of the wood is nailed in place?

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Interesting exchange of ideas on wilderness survival.

Most of the folks I had to look for would have been much better off with a modest skill set and basic gear to control body temps and to keep and process water. They had none of these things, much less Tom Browinish primitive living or bushcraft skills.

But it's true that Olympic swimmers are at much lower risk for drowning in a boating accident. ;)
 
Prybar or or tactical entry tool like a Hooligan bar would work best for gathering wood in an urban setting, but they can be heavy and unwieldy to carry if you are constantly needing to be on the move. A Becker Tactool would be my first choice there: it can pry like crazy and still chop the wood after you get it removed. It's a hell of an all-around wilderness AND urban tool.

On the debate here, building on Myakka's point, the human race would not have made it to this day if 7" knives were needed to get to this point.
 
Guys,

I think I poorly stated my real point here. While I agree with most of whats said my point about large blades is simple.

I never siad you can't survive without a 7 inch blade, thats nuts.

When putting oneself into a higher known risk scenario it is best to prepare and have the prefered tools for the job expected within convenience and or weight size restrictions.

One doesn't go to the moon without O2 so one shouldn't go into the middle of nowhere for any extended period of time without a good blade, its that simple. COuld one get along without a large blade? Sure one can but it isn't prefered nor advised. I have learned teached and experienced survival with minimal equipment and teach others how to do the same. I demonstrate how much easier life is and how much less energy one expends because of the proper tools one has with them.

I do teach others how to survive in my courses with virtually nothing and then I show them whats possible with decent gear and the difference it does and could make in saving your life. To teach just one or the other is irresponsible. I am in the business of preparing people for the unknown and thus I teach people to hedge their bets (as someone said) by having some gear.

CAn you start a fire with a bow drill? Yes under ideal circumstances and experience.
CAn a newbie start a fire with a bic lighter with relative ease experienced or not? Sure within reason.
Do you save a ton of energy starting a fire with a lighter? Sure do (goes to the limit energy to survive theory)

Can a long distance swimmer swim that 10 miles to shore after a boat sinks? Sure he can.
Should that same swimmer not use a life jacket? Of course not.

Comparring native peoples history of living to modern day humans is apples and oranges. Native people didn't survive, they were home, there is a difference.

When I teach I typically use nothing but what is in my pockets to prove a point to my students that it can be done. Most of them are not experienced or confident enough to do this however. It hits home to them how in trouble they would be in a real situation if they have a hard time dealing with the situation with meger gear let alone no gear or minimal.

Most of my students rarely go deep into the woods to begin with but they come away from my course educated to the fact a simple pocket kit containing a SAK with saw, bic lighter, whistle, and heavy duty garbage bag can go a looong way in ensuring their survival vs nothing at all.

Sorry, if I offend anyone it was not my intent.

Skam
 
skammer, no need to apologize, IMO.

This is a site for knife discussion and everyone is entitled to their own opinion....which is what has been posted in this thread so far.

It was never my intent to instigate any type of disagreement/arguing over what constitutes a survival blade.

My question was simply; what are your thoughts on the AFCK being used for survival IF there is a situation where it would be necessary?

Of course, a fixed blade in the 7"+ range would be a more suitable survival blade, but you can't go walking around in an urban environment with one strapped to your belt.

A large tactical folder/small fixed would have to do....
 
Guys,

I think it was polite, and Skammer: we are exactly in agreement in all ways. You have no need to apologize at all.

Congrats on teaching survival -- and I am the one who needs to apologize for misreading your original posts.

When someone is a teacher of survival, I consider it crucial that they are not teaching bad habits, and I was concerned simply because I misunderstood your point. In fact, this last post clears it up perfectly and puts things in great perspective, and I am 100% there with you on what you wrote, and in fact, our philosophies are exactly the same.

Just so you know, the conserve energy method I am talking about does not mean using a lighter. It means finding natural shelter instead taking the energy to build one (knowing what to look for based on the heat/loss gain principles), or doing just enough to add to a natural shelter to make it work. It means breaking a branch between two tree trunks to break up wood rather than chopping and splitting constantly with a knife and wearing yourself out. It means kicking a deadwood log downhill and having it break up on the rocks into fire-sized shards, instead of using a hatchet or knife to cut it into pieces. It means knowing what greens to gather and how to set traps that do the work for you, rather than going off to make a bow and arrow and try to go hunting. These are merely examples, as we know, mileage varies out there. Ron Hood addresses this stuff extensively in Hoods Woods Volume 11 -- Solo: The Quest for Survival, and in his Volume 2 -- Survival Shelter Selection videos. (http://www.survival.com) They provide good examples of what I meant by conserving energy.

Shadow, it's a great point -- when I have time later, I'll jump in, but let's open it up to that: how WOULD one use a small single-blade folder to accomplish the tasks of getting fire, shelter, water, food, as compared to how one would use a 7" blade. Obviously a small folder cannot take the punishment of a 7" fized blade, so how to we work around the inhernet weaknesses of a small folder and make its strengths shine? I think it's an important step in this discussion.

Thanks everyone!

All Best,

~Brian.
 
Thanks Brian,

I figured we were closer in opinion than first thought haha.

BTW, I am a big fan of Ron Hood and his mindset.

Teaching newbies vs experienced people is a very different proposition if you have ever done it.

Skam
 
Skammer,

Cool. LOL! Yes, definitely, like anything, you need to break folks in gradually when you teach them. Teaching newbies and then teaching a Fish & Game or Forest Ranger group certainly manes different approaches.

Ron is the best. I loved having the privilege of being part of Volume 11: Solo with he and Karen. we had some pretty crappy snowy wet daytime conditions with way below freezing at night. And that was just the first week of June.

~B.
 
Hi All-

I'm still trying to figure out why we're gathering logs, splitting wood, and gathering shelter items for "urban wilderness" survival. :confused:

My way of thinking would say we would be talking about one or the other...but not a combination of urban and wilderness in the same sentence.

~ Blue Jays ~
 
Blue Jays, I can understand your viewpoint. However, if you think about it, there is always that "what if" type of situation that may or may not happen, where one would need to go back to the basics of survival. Especially in today's world. This could happen regardless if whether in the middle of a big city, or in the wilderness. Man would still need fire to keep warm, prepare food, light the darkness at night, etc..

My wife is always telling me that I'm being paranoid. I don't think that I am in the least. The world that we are living in now is not the same as the one that we grew up in.

Chance favors the equipped.
 
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