Africa revisited

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Sep 30, 2014
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Just had a long visit with a gentleman who spent segments of his life hunting wood in much of the African continent.
I asked him about the future of Africa and its wildlife.
He became very upset and disturbed about the African story as he experienced it and knows it today.
First I owe a deep apology to anyone I may have insulted with my feedback here on the "Ivory" thread.
I was shooting from the hip and way off the trail in most part.
It happens sometimes but I have picked up bits of information because of the "Ivory" ban and have learned allot trying to see the big picture. I have learned allot.
I can continue if you wish or if you have had enough, which I understand, I will just leave it alone.
Have a good day,

Gary
 
Just had a long visit with a gentleman who spent segments of his life hunting wood in much of the African continent.
I asked him about the future of Africa and its wildlife.
He became very upset and disturbed about the African story as he experienced it and knows it today.
First I owe a deep apology to anyone I may have insulted with my feedback here on the "Ivory" thread.
I was shooting from the hip and way off the trail in most part.
It happens sometimes but I have picked up bits of information because of the "Ivory" ban and have learned allot trying to see the big picture. I have learned allot.
I can continue if you wish or if you have had enough, which I understand, I will just leave it alone.
Have a good day,

Gary

Don't worry about it. We all speak too soon sometimes. My wife tells me I do so all the time. :D I admire your public apology. That's not always easy to do.

With that out of the way, I would be interested in hearing more about this gentleman's experience and thoughts.
 
Gary, thank you on behalf of the guys for your apology although I don't think any of us were looking for that. The very important thing is that after you received new information, you may see things in a little different light and may ( or may not) agree with what we have said here regarding the "Ivory issue" and all of its ramifications.

At any rate, thank you and welcome back.

Paul
 
Very polite responses to Gary. I am done responding. Support Mark Knapp and Knife Rights they are doing their best
 
Hi Gary, It's OK if people disagree. Life would be very boring if we all agreed on everything. When we can talk with open minds and consider what others have to say about any given subject it makes these kinds of forums worthwhile. It's OK if we leave here still in disagreement but if we have a better understanding of the world around us then this hasn't all been a waist of time.

The very least we deserve from each other is courtesy (you know, because we're not cave men).

Welcome back, and please tell us what you learned from this fellow.

One other note, people around here are always a little wary about anyone that doesn't fill out his profile a little more completely.
 
A willingness to learn and change your opinion if the evidence shows you were in error is a good trait to have. To remain respectful through the process is not always easy. I know it can be a challenge for myself, and I try to cut everyone else at least as much slack as I would hope to receive.
Please do pass along your new found information.

I don't think there are any here who would like to see the further decimation of the worlds elephants, so a bit of patience with conflicting opinion is easier if that is kept in mind.

Darcy:)
 
I visit with this gentleman when I need exotic wood from Africa. He is in his 50's and toured Angola, Namibia, Mozambique, Zombia and a few more collecting wood to send to the USA from 79 to 92, in that area. Traveled mostly with a motorcycle and a FAL rifle strapped to his back.
The tales he tells from those trips are amazing.
So, South Africa has changed allot from the 90's.
Parks and management areas are maintained by the new regime if you will.
Population counts , China at 1.3 billion
Africa is close with 1.1 billion....I had no idea and most of the population is in the south on the continent because the North is desert.
So it is wildlife versus human pressure and guess who is winning?
It doesn't sound very promising for the future. Very Sad.

Gary
 
Gary I applaud you for taking the time and effort to find out more information about Central and Southern Africa. I also welcome your change of heart concerning Ivory.

Let me remind you that Africa has 55 independent countries and is the second largest landmass on the planet after Asia.

I have included a map below to show just how big Africa is and how complex the issues of Species management is.

It is always welcome to those of us who live here when someone takes the time to find out what is going on.:)

20101113_WOM943_zps0434cfa6.gif


We also have a few good knife makers!

Des-Horn_zpsbac27550.jpg
 
Very good, beautiful knives Steven. I guess the perplexing thing is as shown with your great country/continent overlay, is how on earth are these animals running out of room to prosper? Has animal welfare and management changed that dramatically since the 90's.

Gary
 
desertification is a pretty ominous problem in Africa. Actually, it's a pretty ominous problem in a growing number of places.
 
I read and follow Mark Knapp threads on ivory, but never say anything there.
It is not because i am against to the idea of using ivory.
I have to say that i love to see knife with ivory scale and i even want to have it.
But of course, there are issues for me before i have a knife with ivory.

I am conservationist by training, experience and education.
I was born and grew up in small village. On that time no pesticide in our paddyfield, even barking deer, wildboar and several species wild cats still wandering around of my village. My village is only 30minutes from the capital of a province in central Java.So i can't really say that i lived in the wilderness.
My first day in the "real wilderness" where we able to see animal with ivory was about 16 years ago. It was when i did my undergrad research on lesser ape, 6 months inside of a national park. I have been in very remote area in Papua couple years before that time.
The research station is 5km from the nearest village and only can be reached by foot. I never go to the village until my research done.
On the first day, i was able to see the elephants. The herds usually between 25-45 animals. Normally we will see them at least once in a month. After i did my undergrad, they (Wildlife Conservation Society Indonesia Program) offered me a job to stay in that research station as a biologist.
I have dozens time of experiences chased by the elephants. But, after 2003, it is really difficult to see them in a big herd.
You will be very lucky if you able see 5-9 animals. The third research station manager have to spent two years in the research station before he able to see an elephant. I have seen 5 elephants death because of hunters just in a single day and many skulls and skeletons during my time there up to 2007.

Conservation is not only about preserving the species and education, but also population and environmental management. It means that the population in many cases should be controlled. It can be by culling or in pleasure and sport way is issued hunting permit.

So, back to the ivory.
The trend of elephant population and any other animal which "produce ivory" such as walrus, hornbill etc are decreasing because of they loss their habitat.
People are hunt the animal from the time when they evolved and resulted animal extinction less compared to modern day development.
Preserving the animal population able to increase the population, even for certain sub-population of African Elephant. Unfortunately it doesnot work for Asian Elephant.
Helmeted hornbill's ivory has been a commodity for thousands year, when the forest in Indonesia still occupied the land for more than 95% of coverage. Nowadays, hunting on helmeted hornbill become a BIG problem since the forest nearly gone and the population of the hornbill is depleted. Recently, intensive poaching on this bird (i guess because of the supply of ivory to China from elephant becoming difficult and the Govt of China just recently agreed to ban the elephant ivory) is increase. It has red color, so you could have a nice red rose carved from this ivory.
But i against to burning all of the seized ivories. It should be keep somewhere for science and art/culture usage under very strict control.
Using ivory for knife can be from this resources (seized ivory), followed by strong law enforcement on illegal hunting. Burning the seized ivory and banning on ivory will not make the population of elephant and any other animals will able to survive.
I still have difficulties to understand the idea of 100% NO on using ivory as a policy will able to keep the animals in a good population since the main problem is on habitat loss (in our case mainly is for oil palm). The palm oil plantation usually poisoning the elephant. And overpopulation in small area also creates problem, that's why i will say that ivory from culling or "legal hunting" can be another legal resources. Science has develop fantastically, ivory "finger print" can be used. Other technical ways can be used to control the "legal ivory" as well.
Subfossil ivory from mammoth etc should be not banned, since it is totally different issue :)
I am not trying to hijack this thread, just want to say something from my mind.

I might be a hypocrite :)
 
I try to stay out of these threads because I dont think its possible to change people's minds on certain issues. But I saw a programme on wildlife crime recently that focused on ivory poaching and learned one thing that is very interesting. There are only a couple of people in the world who are expert enough to accurately gauge the age of a piece of ivory and even they cannot say for an absolute certainty how old it is. They can tell the difference between antique and new ivory though. And of course, they simply cannot date every piece of ivory out there. Certificates can be forged and are.

This means that there is no way of knowing how old ivory is or exactly when it was taken off the dead animal. So you could be buying 'pre-ban' ivory that came off an elephant two weeks ago. And chances are excellent the animal didn't die of natural causes or as part of a legitimate hunt. This is a massive criminal enterprise and we simply don't know how this ivory is ending up on the market.

This is why a total ban on ivory trade is an extreme but necessary measure.

I just want to add that although China is undoubtedly a major part of the reason this trade has sky-rocketed, they are not the only culprits. What surprised me a great deal is the guy who hosts the show, an ex-cop who became a full time wildlife crime investigator, visited several 'antique' markets in London, purchased a few pieces and then took them to one of the experts who can tell if the ivory is truly antique or not. Of the several pieces he bought, only ONE was a true antique. These people were selling what they thought were antiques but had actually been carved very recently.

The US also sees a great deal of ivory flowing across its borders every year, headed for destinations unknown. It is the second biggest market after China.

It therefore makes it considerably easier for people who are fighting wildlife crime if ALL ivory that isnt presently on an elephant is illegal. They can seize ANY shipment and it doesn't matter what the people claim is its provenance - legal or no. This obviously makes it considerably harder for criminals to get the stuff to its destination.

The harder it is for them to make profits, the less likely they are to pursue it. This is the hard reality of what we are dealing with.
 
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I try to stay out of these threads because I dont think its possible to change people's minds on certain issues. But I saw a programme on wildlife crime recently that focused on ivory poaching and learned one thing that is very interesting. There are only a couple of people in the world who are expert enough to accurately gauge the age of a piece of ivory and even they cannot say for an absolute certainty how old it is. They can tell the difference between antique and new ivory though. And of course, they simply cannot date every piece of ivory out there. Certificates can be forged and are.

This means that there is no way of knowing how old ivory is or exactly when it was taken off the dead animal. So you could be buying 'pre-ban' ivory that came off an elephant two weeks ago. And chances are excellent the animal didn't die of natural causes or as part of a legitimate hunt. This is a massive criminal enterprise and we simply don't know how this ivory is ending up on the market.

This is why a total ban on ivory trade is an extreme but necessary measure.

I just want to add that although China is undoubtedly a major part of the reason this trade has sky-rocketed, they are not the only culprits. What surprised me a great deal is the guy who hosts the show, an ex-cop who became a full time wildlife crime investigator, visited several 'antique' markets in London, purchased a few pieces and then took them to one of the experts who can tell if the ivory is truly antique or not. Of the several pieces he bought, only ONE was a true antique. These people were selling what they thought were antiques but had actually been carved very recently.

The US also sees a great deal of ivory flowing across its borders every year, headed for destinations unknown. It is the second biggest market after China.

It therefore makes it considerably easier for people who are fighting wildlife crime if ALL ivory that isnt presently on an elephant is illegal. They can seize ANY shipment and it doesn't matter what the people claim is its provenance - legal or no. This obviously makes it considerably harder for criminals to get the stuff to its destination.

The harder it is for them to make profits, the less likely they are to pursue it. This is the hard reality of what we are dealing with.

Mark I am with you 100% on a ban in the trade of Elephant Ivory, and that is what we have had for many years.

I too find it laughable when I see knives advertised with "Pre-ban" Ivory, as though there is any way to tell.
The only place where you can buy Ivory with complete confidence is South Africa, as we have a record of where all the Ivory came from and it's provenance.

However I am totally opposed to the recent suggestion by US lawmakers that all existing Ivory objects already in the US should be banned from sale within the US borders. Essentially rendering all Ivory objects already in the US illegal, no matter their age and destroying their values.
This makes no sense and will do zero towards conservation. Indeed it may increase poaching.
 
Steven I agree with you that this aspect is a little nuts... but I trust that the people who enforce the laws are not idiots and wont go busting down doors looking for pianos that have ivory keys. I have faith in law enforcement officials, call me crazy! But yes, I think that aspect needs to be re-visited. The real issue is cross-border trade, without a doubt.

However, when it comes to big time 'antiquities' dealers and people like that, who are often recipients of ivory artefacts and seem like totally legit businessmen in many ways, the reality is in a lot of cases these guys are perpetuating the whole sorry saga by just turning a blind eye to where the ivory has originated.

As always PROFITS come first with many of these individuals... and if they think they can get away with it - they will flout the laws.

Mark I am with you 100% on a ban in the trade of Elephant Ivory, and that is what we have had for many years.

I too find it laughable when I see knives advertised with "Pre-ban" Ivory, as though there is any way to tell.
The only place where you can buy Ivory with complete confidence is South Africa, as we have a record of where all the Ivory came from and it's provenance.

However I am totally opposed to the recent suggestion by US lawmakers that all existing Ivory objects already in the US should be banned from sale within the US borders. Essentially rendering all Ivory objects already in the US illegal, no matter their age and destroying their values.
This makes no sense and will do zero towards conservation. Indeed it may increase poaching.
 
Personal attacks are not appreciated here..never mind, it's not worth it with you. :thumbdn:
You should educate yourself more on this issue. :)

Doug
Gary,

I apologize for my above post from the other thread, it was ill conceived and disrespectful.
So sorry.

Good thread ! :)

Doug
 
This has been a constructive thread. One thing that amazes me though is how easily scientific study and statistics are readily disregarded, not to mention, what in my mind, is common sense.

If the ETIS studies say that out of 98 countries studied the US ranks lowest in incidence of illicit ivory, how come it's so easy for people to disregard it. It's the best knowledge we have. We do not have to make important decisions based on hearsay and emotional sensationalism, we have knowledge.

If elephant ivory sells for $1,500.00 a pound in China, and it sells for $100.00 a pound here in the US why would anyone smuggle it to the US?
 
Well Gary what did you say in the last thread

A little deep for Joe ?

Pack your apology buddy not interested......and don't contact me to get a knife again

Maybe before you insult people you should do some traveling and learn what you are talking about
 
Ok, here are the balls I am trying to juggle to determine what is going on with Africa.
First we got the Jane Goodall foundation and my understanding from my family of the Ngamba Island chimpanzee sanctuary in Uganda.
Next my family sponsors a place called Malayaka House which provides for abandoned children of Uganda.
Next I grew up with a gentleman who owns and operates Wilderness Taxidermy and Outfitters. He has been hunting in Africa for 30 years.
Well I just got the scoop from him as far as the big game hunter's theories approach and now I know enough to wrangle with anyone.

Gary
 
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