Aggressive Testing of Knives and the negative attitudes towards it...

[raker]

Cliff,
I used a bar to bend the blade. The test was not to see how strong I was, but to bend the knife approx. 1/3 from the tip. While it is true that there were no microscopes around to look at the grain structure on the inside and on the outside of the bend, the test was to bend after demonstrating the edge holding abilities of the steel.
I think that in order to know the steel you are working with, you should test it. An example would be to lower your tempering temp by 10 deg. until it broke. Then you would know that you have achieved the highest rockwell hardness and still bend. To me that is getting the most from your blade.
If one person does the testing, then that person will have an opinion as to which one is best. I do not just pick a knife I made and bend it just to show someone else that it will bend.

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Ray Kirk
http://www.tah-usa.net/raker

 

[Ben E Hana]

Cobalt-the problem I see with your logic is that you are assuming that because one particular knife did well in a destructive test that that model is good.The next guy can buy that particular model and have it fail miserably.There is a variance from knife to knife even in the same model.Especially hand ground blades.Sure Sal Glesser has the designers test the locks on spyderco knives,but still people report that locks fail.Is this Sal's fault?The one he tested passed shouldn't they all pass.Small variances make huge performance differences.(i'm just using Spyderco as an example)I have 4 model 147 Livesay UJIS each one is a little different.I would expect each to perform a little differently in a destructive test.Another example is Cliffs RCM:He began testing this knife and had it fail,yet I have done the same thing he did to an RCM and more and it has held up fine.Why did his fail?My problem with destructive testing is that it usually involves one knife of a particular model and this isn't sufficient to provide an accurate indicator.There is too little data.Now if 10 or 20 of a particular model fail then I would be concerned about purchasing it.

 

[tom mayo]

any knife blade can be broken....they are not made to be pry bars.....whats the point? thousands of knives are being made out of every known type of blade steel....we have MORE than enough information on how these steels work.......I have NO problem with anyone testing a knife as far as they want to take it....but when they do it to one knife, as mentioned in the post above, and it becomes gospel....wheres the shovel...the other point i would like to make is that there isnt a person on this forum who has the equipment to do a SCIENTIFIC test. end of rant

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http://www.mayoknives.com




[This message has been edited by tom mayo (edited 03-12-2000).]

 

[Cobalt]

Ben, nice restaurant chain by the way. Now to the topic. You are correct that one failure does not a hypothesis make. However, I believe that most people who publish their tests and impressions never took their knifes anywere near the limits, like Cliff does, thus different results. In well made knives I don't believe that there will be that big a difference from knife to knife. At least not the way you claim.

The Big problem that I see with your logic is that it let's certain knifemakers make wild claims(FALSE Claims) that they never intend to backup. After all If we follow your logic, every time a knife breaks, it will quietly be replaced and case closed, no one will know. However, if we publicly test them hard and they fail, the maker will have to deal with his claims in public is it will be open knowledge.

I would bet that Cliffs test of the RCM will not change much if he gets another, but it is always a good idea to test more than one.

So, for all those who do not believe in destructive testing, that must mean that you haven't read Cliff's Tests. Yeah Right! You read them because you wanted to see what happened.

If you are a knifemaker and don't believe in destructive testing then don't stick foot in mouth by making wild claims, then don't cry about it when someone turns your baby into a pretzel.

There is one other person who uses knives hard and will not take a knife out, unless he has taken it to the point that he believes it should not fail at. Most knives fail his test. Some pass it.

I guess different theologies exist here. Say what you want, but the ultimate decision is made by the consumer not the maker. If the consumer feels that a style of knife should be tested based on the makers claims and the maker disagrees, then the consumer shops elsewhere.

Tom, I'm not saying that you should perform destructive tests. But if you are driven to wild claims about your knives(and I don't think you are) as to their indestructibility, then you should be put to task. Some manufacturers make wild claims like, "there is nothing tougher", "has beat all comers", "can cut through a car and still shave", as selling gimmicks. These makers put themselves in the line of fire.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Ray :

An example would be to lower your tempering temp by 10 deg. until it broke. Then you would know that you have achieved the highest rockwell hardness and still bend. To me that is getting the most from your blade.

Ray, I for one would very much like to read this kind of information from you and other makers. It gives a lot of insight if you can see the process by which the methods and materials have been chosen.

Ben :

Why did his fail?

Mine failed and yours didn't because either of the following :

a) my RCM was flawed

b) I was hitting harder targets

c) I was swinging harder

d) I did more chops

Tom :

they are not made to be pry bars

Maybe yours are not. You cannot generalize as some makers have no problem with it.

-Cliff

 

[tom mayo]

I do not forge blades....but If i did i would make them to the best of my ability. they still wouldnt be made to be pry bars, but cutting instruments that could take a lot of lateral abuse....I have testimonies of one of my customers pounding an ats machtete on the concrete with no ill effects, but i take no credit for that, because other than the blade design, Hitachi and Paul Bos are the ones who get the credit for the incredible toughness. they still arent pry bars, and yes, if necessary i would use it for that. I could make a great pry bar by the way if you need one.

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http://www.mayoknives.com

 

[Cobalt]

Tom, I liked your site by the way. That subhilt fighter is a beauty.

 

[L6steel]

Marion, you're more than welcome to buy one of my knives and destroy it!!!

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Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!

[This message has been edited by L6STEEL (edited 03-12-2000).]

 

[Rob Simonich]

As I have said before, I do testing and also destructive testing. If I select a blade now and then or am trying a new alloy I do destructive testing, but I do not send the blade to someone else to destroy. I can learn way more breaking the blade myself than having someone else destroy it and then try to tell me what happened. Right now I have a pile of broken 3-V blades and am still working on the heat treat. I hope to get it right soon as I am getting tired of breaking blades of this material!

 

[GREENJACKET]

Real scientific testing to a level of any real meaning would be deadly dull if that was what it was all about. Science is not very subjective. Who cares? Manufacturers do because they are being forced to.
Knife writers that test to destruction prove even less. Articles need to be fun as well as informative. The thought of a twenty stone knifewritter sweating on the end of a four foot pole in order to bend a 1/4 inch thick bar of steel is funny, because its such a stupid and obviousely pointless exersize. Busting a gut trying to cut tyres is even more hilarious. However these tales have educated the public to the point that they are a very concerning bunch and tight fisted at that.
The pressure is on the manufacturers. if they can use science to improve their product great. If they hype themselves up and don't produce the goods all the greater the fall. Competition is great and as an end user I will benefit. Big slap on the back for Cold Steel for starting the big boys competition ten years or so ago.
Its places such as Bladeforum that keeps knife makers on their toes. If the big manufacturers get their science wrong or the custom maker fails to test his own kit we will hear about it.
Knife makers and writters shouldn't be allowed tea breaks, they should testing, working and testing -to destruction. All for me

[This message has been edited by GREENJACKET (edited 03-13-2000).]