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Agreement
- Thread starter Tom Anderson
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2001
- Messages
- 1,742
Some people!
I have a friend that spends two days a month in my shop learning how to make knives. He asked after the Expo show if it was considered taboo to use design features of other makers knives. I told him if so, then we all should stop making knives.
Everything we do is influenced by someone else. Period.
If you really studied my knives, you would find Engnath, Pease and Slobodian among others I'm sure. Go figure Bob was my teacher and was also Scotts teacher. I just dig Pease's folders.
Add one maker to my list of must buys and scratch two off.
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R.W.Clark
Proud Member : California Knifemakers Association
I have a friend that spends two days a month in my shop learning how to make knives. He asked after the Expo show if it was considered taboo to use design features of other makers knives. I told him if so, then we all should stop making knives.
Everything we do is influenced by someone else. Period.
If you really studied my knives, you would find Engnath, Pease and Slobodian among others I'm sure. Go figure Bob was my teacher and was also Scotts teacher. I just dig Pease's folders.
Add one maker to my list of must buys and scratch two off.
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R.W.Clark
Proud Member : California Knifemakers Association
I have met Tom several times and found him to be very willing to share his thoughts about his or others knives. I have seen some of his work while it was still in the design stage
, and thought it was going to be a winner even before it was a reality.
How many other makers take the time and care enough about the proper way to build a liner lock by using 2 detents?
So what if a design feature or style looks like someone elses, EVERY design in the last 50 years has at least one thing in common with someone elses knife. Whether it be blade style, handle style, clip, lock, etc. There are only so many ways to make a knife, and the way to personalize them is by a little alteration here or a little alteration there. It's that simple.
Personally, I have met and never cared for Elishewitz or his knives. His designs don't do anything for me. If peple like them that is just fine, but I personally don't.
Also as others have said, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. A lot of the people here will be going to the Blade Show in a couple of weeks. When you are there, take a minute and ask Elishewitz or Veile if they make their entire knife by themselves, or if they have helpers or farm out some of the pieces. Then ask if as custom makers, if they don't think that the entire knife should be made by them or they should at least have the courtesy to inform buyers of this. Watch their faces and see how quickly their mood changes from pleasant to pissed off.(and BTW, in regards to the sole authorship issue, there are MANY makers who do use helpers or farm out, some that are right here in these forums. This has become my pet peeve lately, which is why I am dealing with some up and coming new makers).
Point is, don't talk about others, if you can't back up your own. PERIOD.
And Tom, I think you are wrong to send ANY designs to Veile for ANY input. As far as using "his" holes. We both know of at least one other maker he has done this to. He does NOT hold a patent on a hole or the way it is placed on a knife or a clip, so in my opinion, F k him. He has no right to say anything to anybody about a damn hole.
If the tone of my post seems like I am upset about this whole issue, that is because I am. I just can't believe the audacity of some of the "world class and well known" makers, and it is getting worse, not better.
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C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "
How many other makers take the time and care enough about the proper way to build a liner lock by using 2 detents?
So what if a design feature or style looks like someone elses, EVERY design in the last 50 years has at least one thing in common with someone elses knife. Whether it be blade style, handle style, clip, lock, etc. There are only so many ways to make a knife, and the way to personalize them is by a little alteration here or a little alteration there. It's that simple.
Personally, I have met and never cared for Elishewitz or his knives. His designs don't do anything for me. If peple like them that is just fine, but I personally don't.
Also as others have said, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. A lot of the people here will be going to the Blade Show in a couple of weeks. When you are there, take a minute and ask Elishewitz or Veile if they make their entire knife by themselves, or if they have helpers or farm out some of the pieces. Then ask if as custom makers, if they don't think that the entire knife should be made by them or they should at least have the courtesy to inform buyers of this. Watch their faces and see how quickly their mood changes from pleasant to pissed off.(and BTW, in regards to the sole authorship issue, there are MANY makers who do use helpers or farm out, some that are right here in these forums. This has become my pet peeve lately, which is why I am dealing with some up and coming new makers).
Point is, don't talk about others, if you can't back up your own. PERIOD.
And Tom, I think you are wrong to send ANY designs to Veile for ANY input. As far as using "his" holes. We both know of at least one other maker he has done this to. He does NOT hold a patent on a hole or the way it is placed on a knife or a clip, so in my opinion, F k him. He has no right to say anything to anybody about a damn hole.
If the tone of my post seems like I am upset about this whole issue, that is because I am. I just can't believe the audacity of some of the "world class and well known" makers, and it is getting worse, not better.
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C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "
Chefget
Gold Member
- Joined
- Nov 2, 1998
- Messages
- 5,040
Slightly off topic...but JW Smith is argueably one of the most skilled, innovative knifemakers of today. Here is one of my favorite tactical models by him:
Just thought I'd share.
-Michael
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Chefget's Knife Page
Cook?
RecipePack Recipe and Kitchen Management software
Just thought I'd share.
-Michael
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Chefget's Knife Page
Cook?
RecipePack Recipe and Kitchen Management software
- Joined
- Feb 3, 1999
- Messages
- 3,180
- Joined
- Nov 28, 1999
- Messages
- 14,985
Bottom line; there are no original designs anymore. It has all been done before. Blade shape, handles, holes. Everything. People long before any of us were a lot more creative than we give credit. I just go through magazines and find a blade shape that appeals to me and match it up with a handle from another, and have a neatly designed knife. In fact, I think I will go home and grind out a neat little neck knife that looks just like Darryl Ralph's Osprey folder!
Seriously, wouldnt that Osprey design make a cool tactical neck knife?
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Danbo, soul brother of Rambo
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Danbo, soul brother of Rambo
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2000
- Messages
- 871
While I appreciate much of the sentiment I read here, I ask everyone to consider the words of my original post. It was not my intent to discredit anyone by making that statement. I firmly believe that a knifemaker's reputation is essential to his (or her) success.
I also did not intend to set myself up as some kind of martyr. I have taken council and fully understand the consequences of the choices I have made in this matter. In joint opinion, the concessions concerning design have been far outweighed by the actual costs. I intend to abide by this agreement. Hopefully, time will prove how insignificant those concessions really were to my success as a knifemaker.
That is my opinion and in no way should it be misconstrued as an insult to the integrity of any other maker.
I thank you all for your support.
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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
www.andersoncustomknives.com
[This message has been edited by Tom Anderson (edited 05-30-2001).]
I also did not intend to set myself up as some kind of martyr. I have taken council and fully understand the consequences of the choices I have made in this matter. In joint opinion, the concessions concerning design have been far outweighed by the actual costs. I intend to abide by this agreement. Hopefully, time will prove how insignificant those concessions really were to my success as a knifemaker.
That is my opinion and in no way should it be misconstrued as an insult to the integrity of any other maker.
I thank you all for your support.
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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
www.andersoncustomknives.com
[This message has been edited by Tom Anderson (edited 05-30-2001).]
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,981
Wow! Sure is a lot of fodder for thought in this thread.
Tom, I truly respect you for your decision to abide by what seem to me to be silly concessions. I agree, that given all this crap, it is time that you proved how earned your success is, with designs nobody can go whining around about.
Gotta say, I wish Les Robertson would explain his implication that HV is not always ethical.
Would also like to hear some specifics about AE's quality standards.
Have to say that somehow hearing JSP bitch about the # of knots in a lanyard fits exactly with my impression that of all the ridiculously overpriced stuff I've seen yet, some Bladerigger designs truly achieve the sublime. I think it possible that the obvious uniqueness of some designs there is based on the good taste of other makers who wouldln't think of duplicating them.
Also, I have to laugh, because of the recent thread with such bitter complaints of how uncomfortable the CRKT Wasp handle is. Also have to wonder how much grief HV tried to give CRKT when they put the holes in the Tighe Tac clip. While the idea of a clip truly enters the realm of new idea, just how it is done, or how it looks seems to me void of any real "sacred" intellectual property. Having said that, I think the Tighe/tie arrangement of clip holes may well fit within trademark boundaries, because the first glance makes one say Tighe/tie.
I just finished reading Ed Fowler's book, "Knife Talk." How I wish that Ed's notions of integrity and constant work towards lofty goals were more widespread in the knife world.
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Asi es la vida
Bugs
Tom, I truly respect you for your decision to abide by what seem to me to be silly concessions. I agree, that given all this crap, it is time that you proved how earned your success is, with designs nobody can go whining around about.
Gotta say, I wish Les Robertson would explain his implication that HV is not always ethical.
Would also like to hear some specifics about AE's quality standards.
Have to say that somehow hearing JSP bitch about the # of knots in a lanyard fits exactly with my impression that of all the ridiculously overpriced stuff I've seen yet, some Bladerigger designs truly achieve the sublime. I think it possible that the obvious uniqueness of some designs there is based on the good taste of other makers who wouldln't think of duplicating them.
Also, I have to laugh, because of the recent thread with such bitter complaints of how uncomfortable the CRKT Wasp handle is. Also have to wonder how much grief HV tried to give CRKT when they put the holes in the Tighe Tac clip. While the idea of a clip truly enters the realm of new idea, just how it is done, or how it looks seems to me void of any real "sacred" intellectual property. Having said that, I think the Tighe/tie arrangement of clip holes may well fit within trademark boundaries, because the first glance makes one say Tighe/tie.
I just finished reading Ed Fowler's book, "Knife Talk." How I wish that Ed's notions of integrity and constant work towards lofty goals were more widespread in the knife world.
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Asi es la vida
Bugs
- Joined
- Apr 9, 1999
- Messages
- 83
I would have replied much sooner to this ridiculous thread but I just walked in from a 5 days business trip in Europe. I have not even unpacked that I am already on the internet to reply, that is how important this is to me.
This post is to clarify, hopefully once and for all, some rumors and beliefs about myself and hopefully this time somebody is paying attention.
You might not like my knives, my style or even myself but you are a LIAR to mention things in public about what goes on in my shop if you have never been in it. Even if you have heard it from someone else, that is still not good enough. That is called hear-say. My doors are open to anybody that is willing to come over. I have no secrets.
People making comments about my quality or one lock slipping over 5 years ago, is not a representation of what is going on today. If you are going to comment about somebody's work, make sure that you have seen, felt and examine a whole table of the most recent knives(within a couple of months). Some of you guys are being spoon-fed BS and you believe it. Some of you do not know what to look for in a knife, some of you compare apples to watermelon and then comment about the knives. Be your own man/woman and make an opinion by yourself. Don't be manipulated by someone else.
What is happening on this thread is exactly what happened to Michael Walker after the Guild Show. Michael got slammed from all sides from some of you and you did not even know what was going on. You took a rumor, an accusation and you ran with it.
In regards to my knives, yes I have used laser, waterjet and some machining in the past (so have a lot of other knifemakers). It has always been public knowledge and I have never lied about this. The last time I had anything cut was November 2000. Since then all heat-treating, band-saw and whatever else goes into a knife has been done in my shop. I am working throuh my pre-cut parts and within a few months all the parts will be hand cut. The only person I told about this was Ancient Soul a few weeks ago. I was going to save the news for a newsletter that I am planning on doing. The reason why I changed and went all handmade is not because of the pressure from other knifemakers. It is because I have studied this industry in more details than most of you and I have realized that in order to stay ahead you must change more rapidly. Having a batch of pre-cut parts do not allow a maker to change rapidly. So at the show, starting with the Blade Show I will have some blades and liners that have been waterjet but I also will have a lot of parts that were hand cut. And for the ones that believe that you can screw a knife together after laser cut or machining you are grossly mistaken. There is no such thing.
Valerie is the only person that works for me. I cannot have someone else in my shop working with me and I am sure some of you knifemakers can understand this. Another person would just end up getting in my way.
In response to the original post by Tom Anderson, again a lot of you guys did not know what was going on in the back. Howard Viele is one of my best friends and he has been in this industry longer than probably 90% of the makers out there. His style and designs are some of the finest I have ever seen. He was upset about Tom's knives looking a lot like his and this went on for almost a year. I felt bad about it. The first post was not intended as a direct slam to Tom, it was to clarify something that an induvidual wrote. Maybe it was a mistake to post but I did it for a friend. I did not attack Tom to hurt him and as I said in my post it was really to help him. Many knifemakers have influenced me and I have used bits and pieces of their designs, but it is very rewarding when a maker can find his/her true indentity and that was all the post was about.
I speak to a lot of knifemaker at a lot of shows and I asked them why they do not participate on BF. The 2 main reasons are: they are extremely busy making knives and they don't want to get slammed by some of you guys. I feel the same way and that is why I do not participate to much here. This thread is a prime exemple of what I am talking about and it is disgusting.
Allen Elishewitz
This post is to clarify, hopefully once and for all, some rumors and beliefs about myself and hopefully this time somebody is paying attention.
You might not like my knives, my style or even myself but you are a LIAR to mention things in public about what goes on in my shop if you have never been in it. Even if you have heard it from someone else, that is still not good enough. That is called hear-say. My doors are open to anybody that is willing to come over. I have no secrets.
People making comments about my quality or one lock slipping over 5 years ago, is not a representation of what is going on today. If you are going to comment about somebody's work, make sure that you have seen, felt and examine a whole table of the most recent knives(within a couple of months). Some of you guys are being spoon-fed BS and you believe it. Some of you do not know what to look for in a knife, some of you compare apples to watermelon and then comment about the knives. Be your own man/woman and make an opinion by yourself. Don't be manipulated by someone else.
What is happening on this thread is exactly what happened to Michael Walker after the Guild Show. Michael got slammed from all sides from some of you and you did not even know what was going on. You took a rumor, an accusation and you ran with it.
In regards to my knives, yes I have used laser, waterjet and some machining in the past (so have a lot of other knifemakers). It has always been public knowledge and I have never lied about this. The last time I had anything cut was November 2000. Since then all heat-treating, band-saw and whatever else goes into a knife has been done in my shop. I am working throuh my pre-cut parts and within a few months all the parts will be hand cut. The only person I told about this was Ancient Soul a few weeks ago. I was going to save the news for a newsletter that I am planning on doing. The reason why I changed and went all handmade is not because of the pressure from other knifemakers. It is because I have studied this industry in more details than most of you and I have realized that in order to stay ahead you must change more rapidly. Having a batch of pre-cut parts do not allow a maker to change rapidly. So at the show, starting with the Blade Show I will have some blades and liners that have been waterjet but I also will have a lot of parts that were hand cut. And for the ones that believe that you can screw a knife together after laser cut or machining you are grossly mistaken. There is no such thing.
Valerie is the only person that works for me. I cannot have someone else in my shop working with me and I am sure some of you knifemakers can understand this. Another person would just end up getting in my way.
In response to the original post by Tom Anderson, again a lot of you guys did not know what was going on in the back. Howard Viele is one of my best friends and he has been in this industry longer than probably 90% of the makers out there. His style and designs are some of the finest I have ever seen. He was upset about Tom's knives looking a lot like his and this went on for almost a year. I felt bad about it. The first post was not intended as a direct slam to Tom, it was to clarify something that an induvidual wrote. Maybe it was a mistake to post but I did it for a friend. I did not attack Tom to hurt him and as I said in my post it was really to help him. Many knifemakers have influenced me and I have used bits and pieces of their designs, but it is very rewarding when a maker can find his/her true indentity and that was all the post was about.
I speak to a lot of knifemaker at a lot of shows and I asked them why they do not participate on BF. The 2 main reasons are: they are extremely busy making knives and they don't want to get slammed by some of you guys. I feel the same way and that is why I do not participate to much here. This thread is a prime exemple of what I am talking about and it is disgusting.
Allen Elishewitz
dogman
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Jul 26, 1999
- Messages
- 1,105
Allen, you took this public. You could have called or email Tom and taken care of it off line, so don't go accusing others of slinging crap until you clean your sling out first.
You came right out with those words. Tom had not posted in that thread and he certainly hasn't been going around the forums spouting off about how original he is.
According to Knives Annual 2001, first knife sold by Tom Anderson was in 1996. In knifemaker years, that is pretty much a newbie. First knife sold by Allen Elishewitz was in 1989. At what stage was your knifemaking career in 1994, which would put you at the same point Tom is now? Were you moderating a folding knife forum that has helped dozens of new, and established, knifemakers make folding knives? Tom, any many many others contribute and share ideas here. All I have seen from you. Mr. Elishewitz, is bad mouthing. There are etiquette rules here and most folks try to follow them. I am still waiting for that magic post where someone says, "Thanks for the advice, Allen." Your customers and potential customers are reading this. As a knifemaker, I will definitely never do what you have done here.
Thanks for the example, Allen.
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"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
<A HREF="http://www.doggettcustomknives.com" TARGET=_blank>
</A><A HREF="http://www.customknifedirectory.com" TARGET=_blank>
</A>
You came right out with those words. Tom had not posted in that thread and he certainly hasn't been going around the forums spouting off about how original he is.
According to Knives Annual 2001, first knife sold by Tom Anderson was in 1996. In knifemaker years, that is pretty much a newbie. First knife sold by Allen Elishewitz was in 1989. At what stage was your knifemaking career in 1994, which would put you at the same point Tom is now? Were you moderating a folding knife forum that has helped dozens of new, and established, knifemakers make folding knives? Tom, any many many others contribute and share ideas here. All I have seen from you. Mr. Elishewitz, is bad mouthing. There are etiquette rules here and most folks try to follow them. I am still waiting for that magic post where someone says, "Thanks for the advice, Allen." Your customers and potential customers are reading this. As a knifemaker, I will definitely never do what you have done here.
Thanks for the example, Allen.
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"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
<A HREF="http://www.doggettcustomknives.com" TARGET=_blank>
- Joined
- Sep 23, 1999
- Messages
- 3,831
As a newbie hobby maker, who hopes to sell a few this summer for the first time, I am very interested in this thread. I know little of what went on in these "other" threads, what went on in Blade show, and so on. Instead, I have this to ask.
What am I allowed to do? Does someone have a patent on flat grinding? I sure hope not, or else I'm in trouble. I do not ask this in jest. If RJ got slack over having 3 knots in a lanyard, my question isn't all that bad! The knives I am trying to finish right now, my 4th through 7th, are a design of Bob Engnaths. I am adding some magic to the handle that I think is my own, but the design is all Bob's. Is this allowed? If I make a sub hilted knife, do i have to call Bob Loveless first and ask? If I make a knife with a canted handle, should I call Jerry Busse? If I make a fighting knife and call it a name that was used by another maker for a knfie already, will I catch crap for it? Am I allowed to dovetail bolsters?
This is the issue that interests me, as a newbie maker, from this thread. As I said before, I don't ask these questions in jest. I don't want to make a knife with holes drilled in the handle and get yelled at for it. Especially when, as has been said before, these styles have ALREADY been done before, more than likely. So what are we supposed to do?
I made this knife last year:
I had my AFCK handle in mind when designing the handle, and I had flipped through my mags for design inspiration as well. When I was designing/making it, I thought that it looked a lot like a Trace Rinaldi knife. I checked one of my mags and there was a Trace Rinaldi knife that looked similar to that one. I immediately e-mailed Trace and asked him if it was o.k., but I got no response and made the knife anyways. Should I have e-mailed Benchmade and Chris Caracci for the handle inspiration? If in my designing/making of knives I use a feature that I think is "unuque" to a maker, I will and have talked to the maker before to ask if it is o.k. Rob's parasite idea is fantastic. Jeff Randall secures a ferrocium rod in the sheath of his droppe dpoint survival blade. That is a great knife idea! If I want to use these or other "unique" ideas, I think talking to the maker is a decent thing to do. But as far as the "generic" techniques/ideas go, such as flat grinds, single finger grips for handles, the use of micarta, etc., do we need to ask people?
If we do have to ask, and either pay royalties or worse, not use these features, I'm going to go patent the hollow grind and make money that way!
The last part was in jest, but I'd like to hear your opinions on what I have said/asked. I hope, Allen Elishewitz, that you add your input as well. My favorite folder that I have is the Benchmade Striker with your name on it! I think you have great designs and I'd love to hear your input on this matter. I don't know enough about the other issues that you folks have been discussing to form an opinion and comment. But this issue needs to be addressed, if at least for my sake as a newbie maker.
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"Come What May..."
What am I allowed to do? Does someone have a patent on flat grinding? I sure hope not, or else I'm in trouble. I do not ask this in jest. If RJ got slack over having 3 knots in a lanyard, my question isn't all that bad! The knives I am trying to finish right now, my 4th through 7th, are a design of Bob Engnaths. I am adding some magic to the handle that I think is my own, but the design is all Bob's. Is this allowed? If I make a sub hilted knife, do i have to call Bob Loveless first and ask? If I make a knife with a canted handle, should I call Jerry Busse? If I make a fighting knife and call it a name that was used by another maker for a knfie already, will I catch crap for it? Am I allowed to dovetail bolsters?
This is the issue that interests me, as a newbie maker, from this thread. As I said before, I don't ask these questions in jest. I don't want to make a knife with holes drilled in the handle and get yelled at for it. Especially when, as has been said before, these styles have ALREADY been done before, more than likely. So what are we supposed to do?
I made this knife last year:
I had my AFCK handle in mind when designing the handle, and I had flipped through my mags for design inspiration as well. When I was designing/making it, I thought that it looked a lot like a Trace Rinaldi knife. I checked one of my mags and there was a Trace Rinaldi knife that looked similar to that one. I immediately e-mailed Trace and asked him if it was o.k., but I got no response and made the knife anyways. Should I have e-mailed Benchmade and Chris Caracci for the handle inspiration? If in my designing/making of knives I use a feature that I think is "unuque" to a maker, I will and have talked to the maker before to ask if it is o.k. Rob's parasite idea is fantastic. Jeff Randall secures a ferrocium rod in the sheath of his droppe dpoint survival blade. That is a great knife idea! If I want to use these or other "unique" ideas, I think talking to the maker is a decent thing to do. But as far as the "generic" techniques/ideas go, such as flat grinds, single finger grips for handles, the use of micarta, etc., do we need to ask people?
If we do have to ask, and either pay royalties or worse, not use these features, I'm going to go patent the hollow grind and make money that way!
The last part was in jest, but I'd like to hear your opinions on what I have said/asked. I hope, Allen Elishewitz, that you add your input as well. My favorite folder that I have is the Benchmade Striker with your name on it! I think you have great designs and I'd love to hear your input on this matter. I don't know enough about the other issues that you folks have been discussing to form an opinion and comment. But this issue needs to be addressed, if at least for my sake as a newbie maker.
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"Come What May..."
this is really rare
...he's not through yet
LOL
one of the things that got me about his original posts is this...
to a great extent most 'mere mortals' (a bf member who is not a maker) refrain from directly critisizing a maker's work on the forum...it's a generally understood code of behavior...but here we have a maker who didn't hesitate to bash another maker on the forum...
...and now he's resorted to attacking bf members for the mess he got himself into
LOL ...we're liars, disgusting, and manipulated
LMAO
...what a load of crap
if you have any questions, please refer to my signature
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if you wanta play it dumb, you gotta be tough
...he's not through yet
one of the things that got me about his original posts is this...
to a great extent most 'mere mortals' (a bf member who is not a maker) refrain from directly critisizing a maker's work on the forum...it's a generally understood code of behavior...but here we have a maker who didn't hesitate to bash another maker on the forum...
...and now he's resorted to attacking bf members for the mess he got himself into
...what a load of crap
if you have any questions, please refer to my signature
------------------
if you wanta play it dumb, you gotta be tough
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2000
- Messages
- 2,468
Gee, I've looked at Howard's knives in magazines and I even own a Spyderco/Viele piece which is a great knife.
I've been attracted to Tom Anderson's work as well and have a piece on order from him. I really don't find alot of similarities in the designs of these two makers other than the sinuey overlays. What exactly is Tom accused of copying? Anyone can make any shape of blade, overlay or handle. Both Viele and Anderson design features could probably be found on thousands of different knives.
I am sorry to see this sort of topic arise because I know that it will now be awkward for all the parties involved when they run into each other. You guys need to kiss and make up. Forget about the silly backbiting and go have a beer together.
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Peter Atwood
email: fountainman@hotmail.com
I've been attracted to Tom Anderson's work as well and have a piece on order from him. I really don't find alot of similarities in the designs of these two makers other than the sinuey overlays. What exactly is Tom accused of copying? Anyone can make any shape of blade, overlay or handle. Both Viele and Anderson design features could probably be found on thousands of different knives.
I am sorry to see this sort of topic arise because I know that it will now be awkward for all the parties involved when they run into each other. You guys need to kiss and make up. Forget about the silly backbiting and go have a beer together.
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Peter Atwood
email: fountainman@hotmail.com
Gentlemen,
My name is Larry Abramson...some of you know me, others may not. I go to about 3 shows a year to help behind Allen and Val's table, this show being one of them. This year you will be able to recognize me because I will
be the one in FULL BODY ARMOR!!!
I've known Allen for about 14 years, Howard for about 5 and Tom....well I've talked to him at a couple of shows. All of them really are great people and I truly hope all three of them sit and get this straightened out either before the show or at the show ( off to the side of course ).
I agree that this has gotten way out of hand and should have been handled privately. If this arises again, for ANYBODY, use the second icon from the left instead of the far right to make your replies.
As I stated earlier, I know 2 out of the 3 very well. I will use the telephone to let them know what I think.
As for the show next week, everyone has formed an opinion already and some might have a hard time containing themselves at the show. Please let this situation calm itself down and let the parties involved try to resolve matters. I hope this does not put a dark cloud on the show because I like coming to these.
Thanks for your time and hope to see you all there.
Larry Abramson
My name is Larry Abramson...some of you know me, others may not. I go to about 3 shows a year to help behind Allen and Val's table, this show being one of them. This year you will be able to recognize me because I will
be the one in FULL BODY ARMOR!!!
I've known Allen for about 14 years, Howard for about 5 and Tom....well I've talked to him at a couple of shows. All of them really are great people and I truly hope all three of them sit and get this straightened out either before the show or at the show ( off to the side of course ).
I agree that this has gotten way out of hand and should have been handled privately. If this arises again, for ANYBODY, use the second icon from the left instead of the far right to make your replies.
As I stated earlier, I know 2 out of the 3 very well. I will use the telephone to let them know what I think.
As for the show next week, everyone has formed an opinion already and some might have a hard time containing themselves at the show. Please let this situation calm itself down and let the parties involved try to resolve matters. I hope this does not put a dark cloud on the show because I like coming to these.
Thanks for your time and hope to see you all there.
Larry Abramson
- Joined
- Apr 9, 1999
- Messages
- 83
Dogman:
When I started making knives I had never heard of the internet. The internet is so wide spread now, I believe it is one of the greatest source of information, entertaiment, etc. But at the same time it is a double edged sword. As I said in my post people can see only one side of the story and cannot feel the emotion of the individual behind the screen. So that is how these rumors and half-true stories are started. I have contributed on BF mainly in the Shop Talk and some other topics. You are right I do not comment a lot on BF because most of the time I am working and by the time I come around someone has already answered the question.
Dogman, you only know part of the story and the quotes you are showing are only part of it as well. Do not start pointing fingers until you hear from all sides. Reading small captions here and there is not reading the complete story.
On a lighter note, Crayola, it sounds like your approach to design is very much the same way I have done mine for years. I see or feel something on a knife that I like and somehow I try to incorporate that feature within my tastes and designs, just like you have done. I asked Michael Walker if I could do a "tongue & groove" knife because he is known for then "zipper knives". His comment was "sure go for it, I did not invent it.". I have never said my designs were originals because I believe that all designs have been done before. But each knifemaker has a particular style, not just the clip and fasteners on a knife, but a particular style that defines an individual. I don't know if it is patentable, I think it would be very hard to do. But when you start dipping into someone style and identity maybe a phone call or a gesture would be a nice thing to do. I hope this helps you out.
Allen Elishewitz
When I started making knives I had never heard of the internet. The internet is so wide spread now, I believe it is one of the greatest source of information, entertaiment, etc. But at the same time it is a double edged sword. As I said in my post people can see only one side of the story and cannot feel the emotion of the individual behind the screen. So that is how these rumors and half-true stories are started. I have contributed on BF mainly in the Shop Talk and some other topics. You are right I do not comment a lot on BF because most of the time I am working and by the time I come around someone has already answered the question.
Dogman, you only know part of the story and the quotes you are showing are only part of it as well. Do not start pointing fingers until you hear from all sides. Reading small captions here and there is not reading the complete story.
On a lighter note, Crayola, it sounds like your approach to design is very much the same way I have done mine for years. I see or feel something on a knife that I like and somehow I try to incorporate that feature within my tastes and designs, just like you have done. I asked Michael Walker if I could do a "tongue & groove" knife because he is known for then "zipper knives". His comment was "sure go for it, I did not invent it.". I have never said my designs were originals because I believe that all designs have been done before. But each knifemaker has a particular style, not just the clip and fasteners on a knife, but a particular style that defines an individual. I don't know if it is patentable, I think it would be very hard to do. But when you start dipping into someone style and identity maybe a phone call or a gesture would be a nice thing to do. I hope this helps you out.
Allen Elishewitz
- Status