Alcoholics

[Ryan8]

sleepy,

Your opinion pretty much goes against modern medicine and science.

Choosing to take the first drink may be a choice, but after that it may not be.

Or maybe it is, but it is far harder for an alcoholic to quit. The difference
between an alcoholic and a "normal" person is that they drink to excess, to the point of interfering with their life and the behavior is out of control. Alcoholism is very much a self-destructive, compulsive behavior.

There is a pretty good and growing link between genetics and alcoholism. Regardless of the environment one is raised is, if your biological father is an alcoholic then you are far more likely to be one.

I will however agree that being an alcoholic is not an excuse for criminal behavior. I'd also agree that a person with a lot of willpower will be better able to resist the disease.

 

[lifter4Him]

Actually, alcoholism has been classified as a medical disease or an allergy. In NY/NJ medical insurance will pay for alcohol treatment centers and you know they wouldnt pay if they could get around it.
I agree that people shouldnt use things in their life to excuse their behavior.
However when an alcoholic takes that first drink it triggers a reaction that alters their system and inhibitions.

I havent had a drink since 1993 and I've learned 2 things.
One, I've never gotten drunk as long as I dont have that first drink.
Two, I dont care who else drinks(parties,etc.), I have never gotten drunk from someone else's drinking.

 

[nifrand]

My own personal experiences.
Started drinking pretty heavy when I was 14.
Marine Corps at 17.Got busted twice for drinking as a minor.(laugh)Killed people(maybe????)SE Asia, but cannot drink.(laugh)
Got out at 21.
Wife kids,house,ect.
Bought a Bar at 23.Buffet.All the booze I wanted.Don't remember much from 1965-1974.Never remember sleeping and the most important thing was to have a few after work.
Moved to Montana in 74.Drinking age at the time was 18.Remember all the 18 year old High school kids in the bar getting drunk.Social problem.
Divorced
Moved back to CA.
Remarried.
Booze
Riding my scoot in 1989.Got in a wreck.Not my fault but got a duece(23102a)
Driving while Intoxicated.Took my blood while on the way to Hospital.
While in the hospital a nurse told me I might have a drinking problem and recommended going to AA.
Went to a few AA meetings and kind of saw the light.Those guys were a lot more screwed up than I was.
Divorced a few months later and really went over the edge.Carrying a bottle of Crown in my truck all the time.
Depression.
Wanted to kill myself.
Driving home to kill myself,turned left instead of right.Checked myself into a hospital.They 5150 ed me.I could not be released for 72 hrs.Physcotherepy and all its trappings.Shrinks by the droves.
Bottom line.Alkys will continue to be alkys until they are ready to help themselves.Not a minute before.
Asked my youngest son if he thought I had a problem with booze.His insight was I did not have a problem with booze, but that I formed habits.Stopping for ONE drink ect.Dad you can have a drink on occasion,and the key word is OCCASION.It seems to be working.Now I have a drink at weddings,BAKCA,dinner occasionally.
Made me look at myself real hard.
Have a lot of drinking buddies that are no longer with us.Wish they had made a choice earlier.
Randy

 

[Blue Jays]

Hi All-

"...I hope you have a perfect marriage, and then, like Cougar said, I hope she dumps your a$$ and takes you to the cleaners. You come off like an insufferable prig!!:barf:

Talk about arrested development, look in the mirror to see a prime example. What your several spews have done is slap the face all those who are trying to better themselves, and say they're substandard and not worthy of consideration for "proper" people. You couldn't be further from the truth.

I'll tell you something, I'd rather be with someone that's been around a bit, than someone that's led a sheltered existence, as you seem to have..."

Nice rant with very predictable ad hominem attacks.

Are you willing to acknowledge that drug addiction and alcoholism wrecks relationships and smashes families? Are you willing to acknowledge that drug addiction and alcoholism ruins careers? Are you willing to acknowledge that drug addiction and alcoholism contributes to terrible accidents on our streets and highways, not to mention violent crime?

With all this in mind, why is it such a terrible thing for a person who was raised in a family who has not been cursed with drug addiction and alcoholism to wish for that pleasant situation to continue? My family has been in this country for four generations and there isn't a single drug addict or alcoholic among them...so I don't think it's as elusive a goal as your portray.

Drug addicts and alcoholics place enormous, unpredictable, outrageous, and expensive demands on their families and friends. It remains my advice that if your "family circles haven't meshed" with another that has that heavy yoke around their necks, one is in much better shape.

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[Ashes]

Are you willing to acknowledge that drug addiction and alcoholism wrecks relationships and smashes families?

yes, too often.

Are you willing to acknowledge that drug addiction and alcoholism ruins careers?

sometimes.

Are you willing to acknowledge that drug addiction and alcoholism contributes to terrible accidents on our streets and highways, not to mention violent crime?

yes, and probably too often.

My family has been in this country for four generations and there isn't a single drug addict or alcoholic among them.

You have been very fortunate. Count your blessings every day.

Drug addicts and alcoholics place enormous, unpredictable, outrageous, and expensive demands on their families and friends.

And that is why we keep try to keep it a secret from them.

It saddens me that people see alcoholism as a "failure" instead of a disease. That is also what most of us alcoholics think, and what "counseling" (sorry; never been to AA) tells you; that it is a disease and not a failure. If you think it is a failure on your part, your are more likely to turn back to it.

Anyone who has never experienced addiction should not post in response to this thread.

Do any of you smoke? Ever try to quit? Ever try to quit sex? Food? Breathing? It is just as difficult, and I'm not just pulling this sh!t out of my ass. I have been in rehab. I have been on meds. I have failed. I am, and always will be, an alcoholic, sober or not. I try to be sober, but sometimes you need that "warm, comfortable sweater" to keep the monsters away.

~ashes

 

[silenthunterstudios]

I have a problem with food. I also could very easily develop an alchohol problem. Rosacea stopped me from drinking heavily, it really stopped me from drinking at all. Now, I seem to have "lost" this affliction. I put away about ten draft ciders and didn't even break a sweat, nor felt any buzz.

I have alchoholics and drug addicts in my family. Last year about the end of June, I found out that my cousin, who I am very close to, has a bad drug problem. I found out in the morning, and was sick to my stomach the rest of the day. I wanted to find her and get her help, but I don't know my way around New York city, where she still is, although she has realized that she needs help, and is getting it.

Several family members are alchoholics like I said, most of that select group are what you might call functioning alchoholics, and can hold a job while they drink. A 12 pack a night is not good for your health either, and they are feeling the side effects now.

I'm not a religious man, but I pray for them often.

 

[Mike Hull]

Hi All- Nice rant with very predictable ad hominem attacks.

...................

With all this in mind, why is it such a terrible thing for a person who was raised in a family who has not been cursed with drug addiction and alcoholism to wish for that pleasant situation to continue? My family has been in this country for four generations and there isn't a single drug addict or alcoholic among them...so I don't think it's as elusive a goal as your portray.

.............................

~ Blue Jays ~

Nice try at playing the prosecuting attorney, but I'm not buying.
You have all the answers, you figure it out.

I don't think it's such a terrible thing to seek the perfect bride, I just don't think the perfect person exists.
You might find one in some religious commune, or someone that's been locked in a closet for 20 years, that hasn't tried some substance, but most other people have partied rather hardy in their youth.

If they were fortunate, it stopped there, in many it didn't.

My irritation with you is your arrogant stance that an alcoholic, recovering, or otherwise is substandard in your view. That just isn't the truth.

I could argue that your protected life makes you substandard, and an undesirable mate to many people also.

Unless you have direct experience, you might want to withhold your caustic judgment of so many people in todays society.

It's a proven that alcoholics, almost to a person are extremely artistic and have many hidden talents. All they need to do is bring them out.
Many drank to cover up the artistic desires as they have low self esteem, and figure they wouldn't be good at anything anyway.

Also, have you ever been around someone that hasn't done anything in their life outside the boundaries you seem to set. What a snooze that would be.

"Hows the weather where you are, oh, that's nice, well, goodbye".:barf:

You're living in a world of people that experiment with all kinds of things, finding one that has none of this experience will be hard, but you keep looking.

Try showing a little understanding and compassion before you run down people trying to better themselves.

 

[Mike Hull]

Interesting comments Mike.
My paternal grandfather was a German WW1 vet. Don't know if he was gassed, but did get a finger shot off so he was probably close to the action.
Did that study only address alcohol or addiction in general?
I always wondered if there was an 'addictive gene'.


Your comments on arrested development are good as well.
Even when I was boozing, I always said the bars are full of middle aged highschoolers.

If you're referring to the study that doctor was doing in the abuse clinic, as far as I know it was how alcohol affected alcoholics versus "normal" social drinkers. It may have been more far reaching, but if it was, he didn't tell me about it.

The other study by the scientist working with gassed Kurds was a final page in a study by her to prove a direct link to the exposure of so many to certain poison gas used in warfare to depression and a few other mental illnesses.
I don't know if alcohol entered into the study or not, as it was not discussed on the program I watched.

Way back then(WWI), psychiatry was in it's infancy, and most felt like failures if they went to a brain eater(that line of thought continues to this day with many).
On the flip side, if you did go, you were likely to have been prescribed cocaine for your problems. It was the wonder drug of the early 20th century.
When they discovered how addictive that was, they then prescribed the newly discovered heroin. Yeah, that's the ticket, nothing addictive about that.

But from what I've read, most people wouldn't go the mental health route.
It carried a stigma that most were unwilling to bear.

Don't forget, heavy drinking was excepted as perfectly normal by many in this country(and many others) right up to the 1980's. So this attitude of the horrid alcoholic is fairly new. People that drank to excess were often the life of the party, and it was condoned by society in general as normal.

The harm it caused that persons family was rarely discussed. AND, please note, not all of us "horrible, awful, terrible" alcoholics beat our spouses and children.
I would guess that in fact the majority didn't. But none the less, the money spent, and the worry, was enough.

I agree with your last sentence, Ebbtide! I felt the same.

Edited for spelling.

 

[shaldag]

Originally Posted by Ebbtide:

I always wondered if there was an 'addictive gene'.

It would be astonishing if behavior as complex as a tendency to addiction did not have a genetic component. Little if any human behavior is exclusively genetic or environmental.

There are indeed strong indications of a gene or set of genes that are linked to addicitive behavior. Certain neurotransmitter receptor levels have been correlated with addictive behavior, and of course, these are at least partially determined by genes.

 

[sleepy]

I am the wife of sleepy and could not help but read these opinions. While alcoholism is related to a gene, so are obesity, abusiveness, diabetes, heart disease, etc. A gene predisposes a person to a particular disease. However, poor choices guarantees the disease. Just as healthy choices can prevent the disease. At one point, sleepy and I both chose to drink often and heavy. Then we chose to quit. Alcoholism runs in both our families. I suppose if we wanted to continue to drink, we could have used this as an exuse. That's all it is, an exuse. People who say, " poor alcoholics, it can't be avoided" are enablers. People, who live with alcoholics and make exuses for them, are co-dependant. I say own your choices, take responsibility for your actions and stop blaming circumstances, people, and genetics. Alcoholism is a problem that needs fixed. If you need help then get help.

 

[shaldag]

Most human behavior has genetic components underlying those forms of behavior---interacting with the environmet, developmental processes, etc in ways that are not completely understood by science. However, this is not to say that individuals are not responsible for their own behavior. We do have free will. Let me give an example. Two people, one more at risk for heart disease because of their genetic disposition (we do not know all risk factors for heart disease, but certainly there is a high risk factor for family history--indicating genetic components.) Now the person with the family history of heart disease can help mitigate his/her risk by exercise, eating moderately, etc. While the person with less genetic risk can smoke 4 packs of terrible black French cigarettes a day, eat 3 pounds of bacon for breakfast etc. You get the idea. Another way of putting it would be that identical twins (same genes) with a family history of hear disease do not necessarily have the same risk of a heart attack, especially if one exercises and the other smokes, eats bacon, etc.

Your genes may influence your behavior, as does your environment.
Neither DETERMINES your behavior.

 

[Ebbtide]

Well all have to be responsible for our actions.
Having said that...
I was wondering if the genetic thing would make it easier for some to fall into the trap of addiction, whether it be booze, cigarettes, drugs and even work.

(Ever work for a workaholic?
Sheesh.)

My daughter is a soph in college.
She saw/sees how dysfunctional the drinking culture can be (classmates, relatives etc...me).
Yet she doesn't want to be left out of the crowd.
That's a tough place to be.

I drank at home, was never much for bars.
Didn't beat my wife, kid or dog.
But I was never sober 2 days in a row.

I mainly quit to be a better example for her. And for my wife. And me too, it just wasn't fun anymore. More like existence.
That was 7 years ago.

I guess she's the reason I worry about the genetic thing.
We've had long talks. I've been honest with her. I just hope that she doesn't fall into the trap like I did.
As a family we are much happier now, and I know why

 

[Mike Hull]

Well all have to be responsible for our actions.
Having said that...
I was wondering if the genetic thing would make it easier for some to fall into the trap of addiction, whether it be booze, cigarettes, drugs and even work.




I mainly quit to be a better example for her. And for my wife. And me too, it just wasn't fun anymore. More like existence.
That was 7 years ago.

I guess she's the reason I worry about the genetic thing.
We've had long talks. I've been honest with her. I just hope that she doesn't fall into the trap like I did.
As a family we are much happier now, and I know why

I heard many years ago that it was a genetic/inherited gene problem, though I can't prove it. The weird part is, if you have say three kids, it might skip one, or two, or just one, or all three. There's no sure way to tell.

The thing is, if you tell the son/daughter(s) about the problem, and that they may be predisposed to alcoholism, it might break the chain, or put a damper on the potential to start heavy drinking.

All my fathers side were alcoholics except his mother, my brother and sister grew up with it(he could be nasty), and still had drinking problems. My Brother controlled it, but my Sister can't stop, though she's not a falling down drunk.
I was born late in my fathers life, and I guess he'd mellowed as I don't ever remember a cross word from him before he died, yet I became an alcoholic.

Mine though may have had more to do with my upbringing after my father died. I just don't know.

Neither of my sons became alcoholics, though my oldest was a heavy drinker in his early twenties. He just stopped one day. His mother was an alcoholic, and a doper. Maybe that scared him straight.

Funny she never did any of that when we were married(might have been more fun if she had. J/K, J/K), but after we separated, she went crazy on meth and wine. Doesn't even remember 10-15 years of her life during that period, or so she claims.

Congratulations on your 7 years sobriety. I know how hard it can be at times.


Edited to add: Yes, I too believe we are all responsible for our actions. The gene may give a person a predisposition to drink, or become addicted to it easier, but with the info available today, there's no excuse to start. It's up to the individual.

 

[Ebbtide]

Thanks Mike.
And congrats to you too.

 

[lifter4Him]

There may be a difference of the definition of an alcoholic going on in this thread.
An alcoholic to me, doesnt necessarily have to be someone who drinks everyday(although it can be) but I define an alcoholic as someone who either cannot control their drinking or someone who does not know what will happen after they take that first drink.
I know alcoholics who dont drink everyday but just about everytime they do, they end up in handcuffs. I know others who are blackout drinkers, they truly dont remember what they do when they are drinking.
If they have no control or dont remember what they do, they are just as much an alcoholic as that person who drinks everyday and has a physical dependence on alcohol.
Sleepy, yes, there are choices. Obviously because there are people in this thread who are admitted alcoholics who have been sober quite a long time, an alcoholic can choose to be sober.

Hey Wally(Ebbtide), that's great to hear about your daughter.
My 2 sons dont seem to struggle with it either, though they are acutely aware of the alcohol/drug culture from family experience. One's in his second year of law school and the other is in training to be a police officer. We are some fortunate people.
See you at the NY show in 8 weeks

 

[jsmatos]

I read an article the other day in Time magazine (I believe). The whole issue was dedicated to scientific breakthroughs. The article was really very interesting. In it scientists were making DNA connections relative to addiction, depression, alzheimers, etc, within the brain tissue. What I found especially interesting is the connection it made to families. It opined that perhaps the reason that so many family members share similar problems is because of strands in their brain that are designed to react similarly to differing stimuli. This made me think alot about my personality and the flaws that I would like to overcome. I wonder how much of it is written into my DNA. Like so many here have already stated, we are the final decisionmakers of how we behave. The facts are that we are all so very flawed. We all know intimately our own shortcomings. There are so many gut reactions that I have to different personalities and other stimuli that I would like to change. I wonder just how much control we can have over such matters. I am going to start stepping back and analyzing my behavior more to see if I can be more in the driver's seat. For example, instead of letting something get me down, I'll try to see it as my DNA controlling my response and try for another response.

I wonder how far this kind of knowledge can take us. If we were to change our responses to different stimuli despite our DNA, what affect would this have over time? Could it have any at all? Obviously, I'm ignorant about the study of DNA. I was just wondering what other, more knowledgeable, forumites would think of these studies, there future implications for science, and there future implications for us as individuals who are, or should be, in control of our own destiny.

 

[Ashes]

"It's easy to quit drinking; I've done it about a dozen times." Or something like that. I forget the actual quote, or whom to credit it to.

Does alcoholism tend to skip a generation? I'm asking because ALL FOUR of my grandparents were alcoholics, but my parents aren't. My oldest brother is an addict. My other brother drinks a bit, but not to where it could be considered a problem, but he has a different father than I do too (same as my other brother), and my oldest brother and I both resemble my mom, while he resembles his dad.

My mom says that her father was basically known as the "town drunk." She drinks, but not often or to excess. My father watched his mother die from - I don't know how to spell it - cirrhosis? He almost never drinks and when he does it's like a wine cooler or some wussy thing. His father and older brother died of heart attacks. My mother's parents died from cancer, either caused or complicated by excessive drinking.

Addictions are strange... I think I've gone from one to another to another...

When I was a kid, I think it was food. I wasn't a skinny child, lol, and I grew up with a rather "large" family, even though it was just four of us. My dad was Italian ; my mom loved to cook (and eat, I suppose), and even taught cooking classes for a while. I remember going on my first diet in third grade. I was eight years old. My sister was in fifth grade, and we dieted together. My weight has gone up and down ever since.

I became anorexic in college, and also was actually "addicted" to exercising. I'd get up in the middle of the night to work out, thinking I was too fat and my two hours at the gym weren't enough to work off the turkey sandwich I had for lunch or something. Other times I would lie in bed and feel my bones and not know whether to be proud or afraid. There were nights when I was afraid I wouldn't wake up. I only stopped starving myself a couple years ago, when I got sick and broke seven ribs and people started constantly watching me and lecturing me.

I eventually turned to marijuana, and I smoked every day. Even during my lunch break at work. People seemed to like me more, and I was less shy when I smoked.

Then I turned to alcohol. Actually, I was still heavily smoking pot when I started drinking, but eventually realized that I couldn't afford both and alcohol became my "drug" of choice.

I don't want to be an alcoholic. I have quit so many times, even gone through "Intensive Outpatient Rehab", which I initiated myself, this past winter. I have never gotten in trouble with the law, never hurt anyone (except myself) and was/am generally a very easygoing, mellow drunk. Then there are days when I drink because I'm upset, or angry, and I become a miserable, crying, pathetic drunk and I hate myself for it, and I always vow to quit the next day... Then the next day comes and I can feel my blood moving like it's on fire, and my hands are shakey, and I can't function unless I take another drink.

"That's all I have to say about that."

~ashes

 

[Ebbtide]

Ashes, I hear you on that last paragraph.

When your ready, you'll do it.
Just about everyone that was where you are now and stopped says:
I wish I had quit 20 years ago. Including me.
You're young and still have those 20 years.
You are worth it.

You will be more confident. Not having that first one is empowering.
Granted the first while aint easy. Nothing worthwhile ever is.
You'll have more energy but it will be frustrating, so keep busy.
Keep your brain busy so you create new habits...
Alot of addiction is routine.
I'd leave work and hit the deli for a tall boy... Routine.
My wife would start the car and light a cig...routine.
She went to a 'hypnotist' to quit the cigs. He taught them to invision themselves without the smokes. Clean breath, no ashtrays to clean, no running out in the rain for another pack.
No more being a slave to a thing.
It worked for her.
Worked for me, too.
I had to hate the drink to stop.
I hated that I had to sneak around before noon.
I hated that I didn't drive and pawned that off on my wife.
I hated waking up in the morning.

So I turned that hate on the bottle instead of myself.

Now I've got to the point where wine (formerly yummie) doesn't even smell good. Liquor? Blech.
I don't know if that's the right way to quit, but it worked for me.

Dave, Thank you.
I was laying in bed and thinking about this thread.
Obviously important to me.
I regretted congratulating Mike and not the rest of you all that are fighting the good fight.

So CONGRATS ALL OF YOU!

See you in 8 weeks, got some leather to show you