Aldo's 1084 vs. Kelly's 1080 and hamons

J

Jason Fry

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Jun 5, 2008
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I want to make a stick tang hunter with a hamon, or at least a good temper line. I have Aldo's 1084 and Kelly's 1080 in the proper size. These steels are "virtually" identical in heat treat and performance as far as I can tell. I have put wavy lines with no real action in Kelly's steel. I haven't tried Aldo's. Will be clay coating and using fast oil and digital temp control. Anybody with experience in both of these? Which one will give me a better hamon?

Jason
 
1095
W2

1084 is deep hardening, it is not what you want if you are looking for hamons. Yes you can put a hamon on it if you are determined but it is not ideal

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I have used Aldo's 80CrV2 which is 1080 with added Chromium and Vanadium. I have edge quenched and clayed blades (in Parks 50). I am polishing out the edge quenched blade now and it does make a visible quench line. I'm not sure about the clayed blades yet as I haven't gotten around to polishing them out. Can't remember what I was getting with 1084. If the hamon is what you are chasing, W2 and 1075 seem to be the go to steels.
 
If you're not after the performance that the hamon brings, and are just after looks, try using mustard. Coat the are as you would with clay. Let it sit for 20 or 30 minutes then clean it off.
 
shane_o_ca said:
If you're not after the performance that the hamon brings, and are just after looks, try using mustard. Coat the are as you would with clay. Let it sit for 20 or 30 minutes then clean it off.
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A hamon does not bring better performance, it is actually creating a weak blade compared to a blade completely comprised of properly heat treated tempered martensite. Hamons are a purely aesthetic choice

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sunshadow said:
A hamon does not bring better performance, it is actually creating a weak blade compared to a blade completely comprised of properly heat treated tempered martensite. Hamons are a purely aesthetic choice

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I guess I meant performance as in soft spine and hard edge.
 
shane_o_ca said:
I guess I meant performance as in soft spine and hard edge.
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That is not an improvement in performance if your heat treat is good, it is sacrificing strength for tradition and aesthetics. That said, I love the look of a good hamon.

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For me it's an aesthetic choice, not a performance choice. I found a guy locally who has a bit of 1095 he's going to swap me, which I know will work better for a hamon if I can overcome the headaches of getting it to harden right.
 
Jason, I have been getting some great hamons in 1095 when I keep the austentizing temp below 1475f. Since I use a forge, i do a 5-10min soak at 1465f. And quench in DT48 (about the same as parks50.) if I use 3/16" or thicker, I don't even use clay. I interrupt the quench when it feels right. I don't know how to explain it, there is a change in the feel of the sizzle, out for 4 seconds, then back in to finish the quench. The hardened part of the blade is Rc65 or better, so no concerns with hardening.
 
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I have a comment and a question..
Comment: Kelly nor Aldo make steel, they use the same supplier/manufacturer so who you get it from shouldn't matter.

Question: there seems to be two different opinions/fact quoted and only can be correct.
1080 is eutectic, 1095 is hyper eutectic, and 1075 is hypo eutectic. Which carbon content produces the best Hamon and more importantly why?
 
It has little to do with the carbon content. The deepness of the hardening is the most important element, then temp, time, quench speed, along with geometry. 15N20 isn't supposed to show a hamon, but the manganese content of Aldo's 15N20 is about half of the normal spec (Manganese is the element most associated with depth of hardening, but there are several elements associated with this.) Manganese less than 0.5%, (0.4% preferably) generally increases hamon potential. 1080+ has 0.45% Manganese, whereas 1084 generally is 0.8+%. O1 is 1-1.5%= deeper hardening. W2 is 0.3% approx, shallow hardening, 1095 is about 0.35% Manganese.

11039425974_5477f3b984_z.jpg


One is 1095, the other is 15N20. Want to guess which is which? The manganese content is within 0.05% or so in each.
 
dedub said:
I have a comment and a question..
Comment: Kelly nor Aldo make steel, they use the same supplier/manufacturer so who you get it from shouldn't matter.

Question: there seems to be two different opinions/fact quoted and only can be correct.
1080 is eutectic, 1095 is hyper eutectic, and 1075 is hypo eutectic. Which carbon content produces the best Hamon and more importantly why?
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Actually Aldo has his 1084v custom melted to his chemistry specs by a small mill in Germany. I am not sure where Kelly gets his from but they are definitely different materials (I have both in my basement right now) as stated it is not carbon, but manganese that has the biggest effect on your hamon, carbon is obviously necessary but it is not the only element in play

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Willie,

In all the time I've had it here I have never taken a close look at the certs. on the 1/8 and 1/16 15N20 I had rolled.

C .74 Si .28 Mn .35 Cr .095 Ni 1.97

Maybe we should take a look at getting some thicker sizes in. :) Both hamons are beauties. I'm guessing the shorter blade.

As for the W2 we are hoping to get the Mang at about .20. We should know in a few weeks.(This time it was all tested before it went out!)

Aldo
 
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dedub said:
I have a comment and a question..
Comment: Kelly nor Aldo make steel, they use the same supplier/manufacturer so who you get it from shouldn't matter.

Question: there seems to be two different opinions/fact quoted and only can be correct.
1080 is eutectic, 1095 is hyper eutectic, and 1075 is hypo eutectic. Which carbon content produces the best Hamon and more importantly why?
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True they don't make it, wrong about them being the same.

Curious about your handle being blue like a registered user but it says knifemaker? I don't think I've seen that before.
 
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Aldo Bruno said:
Willie,

In all the time I've had it here I have never taken a close look at the certs. on the 1/8 and 1/16 15N20 I had rolled.

C .74 Si .28 Mn .35 Cr .095 Ni 1.97

Maybe we should take a look at getting some thicker sizes in. :) Both hamons are beauties. I'm guessing the shorter blade.

As for the W2 we are hoping to get the Mang at about .20. We should know in a few weeks.(This time it was all tested before it went out!)

Aldo
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Yes, its the shorter blade. It was accidental with no clay. I was experimenting with austentizing temps, and this one was a low temp 1465 austentize with a 5 min soak into DT48. After the first 350f temper it was Rc63. Really happy with the results! The grain is really fine, it takes an edge almost like O1/52100 does. I really like this steel! I would definitely get some in 3/16" or 1/4" if you got it.
 
The other nice thing about 15N20 is the patina. It comes up pretty quickly do to the nickel. We have a few guys making kitchen cutlery out of it and they are getting great results.
 
Aldo Bruno said:
The other nice thing about 15N20 is the patina. It comes up pretty quickly do to the nickel. We have a few guys making kitchen cutlery out of it and they are getting great results.
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+10 on this. I have made about 10 kitchen knives out of the thinner stock, and they perform great. I can get a little more out of 52100, but it's a lot trickier to heat treat. My wife's favorite knife is 15N20. I did a few chefs knives with it for Christmas presents and they were well received.
 
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