All heartwood handle

Agent_H said:
Thank you SC T100 - truck reference? You put some very nice stuff together I've seen here. Any chance for a Plumb picture with the heartwood? Some of the heartwood has colors bordering on "Plumb". :thumbup:
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As a matter of fact, yeah! It's a reference to my Toyota T100...'97 V6 4WD with a 5-speed. Fantastic truck! and thanks for the kind words!

Here's the Plumb (Rockaway) on the plumb-ish heartwood handle. I didn;t realize you could request all-heartwood from HH...I'll be doing that next time.





And with a little filtering!
 
Agent_H said:
This is a Plumb 3.2 double bit that has a heartwood handle as well. Haven't touched the edge yet. What pattern would this one be? I want to say swamping or Michigan but it might be something else with the wear pattern throwing me off.



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I'd say maybe a well-used Wisconsin or Western pattern, but Michigan is most likely.
 
I was wrong in my post before. The GB Scandinavian is half heartwood. The Wetterlings Foresters fine axe is all heartwood. I also did a 4 lb. Michigan Collins Legitimus recently with an all heartwood handle.

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I had a '95 T100 until last year. Great truck. I wish I could have kept it but the rust was just getting too bad. I sold it to another T100 owner for a parts truck. Destined to be a classic IMO.
 
It's BS to think that there is no difference between the heart wood and the sap wood. Some test results from a source that is trying to sell us the whole tree will not sway my opinion. I have tested enough material to know that test results can be very misleading. If you think it is the same just grab a piece and put a draw knife or a spoke shave to it.

We have a couple hundred years experience handed down through generations telling us that second growth sap wood makes the best handles. But most are willing to discount that off hand based on a government study that has its own agenda.
I will get off my soap box now.:D

That being said I like all heart wood handles. They are better than ash. Which is not all that bad. And they look good. These days I am just glad to get decent grain.
 
garry3 said:
But most are willing to discount that off hand based on a government study that has its own agenda.
I will get off my soap box now.:D

That being said I like all heart wood handles. They are better than ash. Which is not all that bad. And they look good. These days I am just glad to get decent grain.
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Agenda? What agenda would that be? Why would they care one way or the other? They were scientists testing a hypothesis.
 
I dont know what this would mean but i find heartwood to be harder to work with a spokeshave as it tend to be "dryer" and more brittle, but that might only be the pieces ive worked with, might mean nothing... but given equality good grain i will always go with sapwood for ease of working.
 
garry3 said:
It's BS to think that there is no difference between the heart wood and the sap wood. Some test results from a source that is trying to sell us the whole tree will not sway my opinion. I have tested enough material to know that test results can be very misleading. If you think it is the same just grab a piece and put a draw knife or a spoke shave to it.

We have a couple hundred years experience handed down through generations telling us that second growth sap wood makes the best handles. But most are willing to discount that off hand based on a government study that has its own agenda.
I will get off my soap box now.:D

That being said I like all heart wood handles. They are better than ash. Which is not all that bad. And they look good. These days I am just glad to get decent grain.
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Well, it's a different application but it seems that a lot of drummers actually like sticks made from heartwood vs. sapwood. I can't find it now but I remember seeing one company (it may even have been those Los Cabos folks) that had independent testing done on them.
 
halfaxe said:
Agenda? What agenda would that be? Why would they care one way or the other? They were scientists testing a hypothesis.
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Yeah...wasn't that study done by the Forest Service in regards to axe handle strength for use by their staff and not by the lumber sellers?
 
SC T100 said:
Yeah...wasn't that study done by the Forest Service in regards to axe handle strength for use by their staff and not by the lumber sellers?
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I would think that heartwood is marginally harder on saw teeth, chisels, rasps and files due to the accumulation of minerals, oxides and debris but the lignin cell structure (which gives it strength) should remain unaffected unless blocked cells are subject to frost rupture. And for the same reason a heartwood haft ought to be a little bit heavier than it's sapwood counterpart.
 
halfaxe said:
Agenda? What agenda would that be? Why would they care one way or the other? They were scientists testing a hypothesis.
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It was done by the government. And yes they had an agenda. They wanted to encourage timber sales. It would help both the manufacturer the private logging company's, timber owners, as well as government timber sales. Particularly with the more northern hickory that has more heart wood to sap wood ratio. Everyone wins even the consumer if you want to look at cheaper prices.

The testing was more than likely done by an independent lab. You can hire about any lab to get the results you are looking for(don't ask how I know).

I wonder why modulus of rupture was chosen instead of modulus of elasticity? There are all kinds of ways to tilt the scale on tests and still be within the standards of a test method.

Then we have lies, damn lies, and statistics. (John Madden) :D

Believe what you want but, if you work with the wood you would know it's not the same.

Or you can just believe the government study and pass off what has been handed down through generations as "dogma of the past" as some one else put it.
I prefer to question everything and find out for my self.

I still like heart wood handles though!
 
garry3 said:
It was done by the government. And yes they had an agenda. They wanted to encourage timber sales. It would help both the manufacturer the private logging company's, timber owners, as well as government timber sales. Particularly with the more northern hickory that has more heart wood to sap wood ratio. Everyone wins even the consumer if you want to look at cheaper prices.

The testing was more than likely done by an independent lab. You can hire about any lab to get the results you are looking for(don't ask how I know).

I wonder why modulus of rupture was chosen instead of modulus of elasticity? There are all kinds of ways to tilt the scale on tests and still be within the standards of a test method.

Then we have lies, damn lies, and statistics. (John Madden) :D

Believe what you want but, if you work with the wood you would know it's not the same.

Or you can just believe the government study and pass off what has been handed down through generations as "dogma of the past" as some one else put it.
I prefer to question everything and find out for my self.

I still like heart wood handles though!
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I agree 100% with what you say, as i said earlier, the heartwood seem harder and more rigid than the sapwood, which i think would be fine for shorter handles, but for longer ones, ill take sapwood, always.

heartwood also tend to crack and split more readily when worked with a chisel.
 
Remzy said:
I agree 100% with what you say, as i said earlier, the heartwood seem harder and more rigid than the sapwood, which i think would be fine for shorter handles, but for longer ones, ill take sapwood, always.

heartwood also tend to crack and split more readily when worked with a chisel.
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A simple bend test with your hands on a couple slivers of wood will show why they chose modulus of rupture also.
 
I agree there is a difference between heartwood and sapwood, just disagree about the difference in strength. The study was done in the 1930's not by an independent laboratory, but by the forest products laboratory, a division of the USFS. If you read the study, actually the weakest wood was sapwood closest to the bark on large trees with lots of heartwood. Weakest wood had growth rings more than 20 per inch regardless of sapwood or heartwood.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZY...&q=heartwood sapwood hickory strength&f=false

One look in Lowes at the axe handle bin and then a stroll over to the hickory flooring and cabinet displays show where the real money in hickory is. If the study would have shown a significant difference in strength, then the money would have went to an extra premium for sapwood and even lower value for heartwood. The total US hickory handle value would still be the same. There was no scheme.
 
Meanwhile I know guys who use Northern birch, maple, etc, for their axe handles and they've never had an issue. I think that we ned to press the wood type issue more than it needs to be. Hickory is unquestionably stronger than those other misc. hardwoods, but they're still strong enough.
 
halfaxe said:
I agree there is a difference between heartwood and sapwood, just disagree about the difference in strength. The study was done in the 1930's not by an independent laboratory, but by the forest products laboratory, a division of the USFS. If you read the study, actually the weakest wood was sapwood closest to the bark on large trees with lots of heartwood. Weakest wood had growth rings more than 20 per inch regardless of sapwood or heartwood.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZY...&q=heartwood sapwood hickory strength&f=false

One look in Lowes at the axe handle bin and then a stroll over to the hickory flooring and cabinet displays show where the real money in hickory is. If the study would have shown a significant difference in strength, then the money would have went to an extra premium for sapwood and even lower value for heartwood. The total US hickory handle value would still be the same. There was no scheme.
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Hickory being harvested commercially as something other than tool handles is a very new thing as far as I know. So yes you can now buy hickory flooring and cabinets. Its just a sign of the times. Any product made out of solid wood is at a premium.

Read page 57 of the study and that will tell you all you really need to know. It was just economics.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Meanwhile I know guys who use Northern birch, maple, etc, for their axe handles and they've never had an issue. I think that we ned to press the wood type issue more than it needs to be. Hickory is unquestionably stronger than those other misc. hardwoods, but they're still strong enough.
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Agree. Yellow Birch or Sweet Birch should both make a fantastic handle, as well as Sugar Maple, Black Maple, Pecan, Osage Orange, Honey Locust and Black Locust on shorter handles, Cherry on shorter handles, Blue Beech (Hornbeam), Desert Ironwood, European Beech, Elm, Ipe, the lis goes on and on.
 
chuxwan said:
Agree. Yellow Birch or Sweet Birch should both make a fantastic handle, as well as Sugar Maple, Black Maple, Pecan, Osage Orange, Honey Locust and Black Locust on shorter handles, Cherry on shorter handles, Blue Beech (Hornbeam), Desert Ironwood, European Beech, Elm, Ipe, the lis goes on and on.
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I have been told this also, and that fruit tree woods is also suitable for short handles. I purchased 1.75" square by 13" seasoned cherry to try for hammers. One note, make sure that your wedge is not too long and thin- I wasn't paying attention on my first one and used one made for a full sized axe and only cut it's width but did not shorten it. When driven it split the handle below the head. Even so, it's strong enough to drive metal wedges without issue, so I'm leaving it until the moment it worsens.
 
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